Arrow weight?
04-19-2003, 09:43 PM
#1
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chatsworth IL USA
Posts: 5,012
Arrow weight?
OK guys, I don' t know too much when it comes to arrows. I get what I am told and fletch them like I like.
But the battle in my mind is always this. Shoot a light arrow and gain some speed, or shoot a heavy arrow and get more KE. Is this true? Now I don' t even want to talk carbons, so don' t even try. I am sticking to my Easton XX78' s.
What do you techies think? 2213....light fast but not real durable or go something a little bigger like a 2315 with a little thicker wall and bigger diameter?
But the battle in my mind is always this. Shoot a light arrow and gain some speed, or shoot a heavy arrow and get more KE. Is this true? Now I don' t even want to talk carbons, so don' t even try. I am sticking to my Easton XX78' s.
What do you techies think? 2213....light fast but not real durable or go something a little bigger like a 2315 with a little thicker wall and bigger diameter?
04-19-2003, 10:06 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Arrow weight?
IL,
Within the weight range you listed KE level changes will be basically a non factor........KE level only rises slightly as arrow weight is increased due to the fact that a bow only has one efficiency level. If all else stays the same (string load, draw weight, draw length ) and only arrow weight changes, then KE level will stay very similar to levels attained with a lighter arrow. Most of my bows have shown an increase of only about 2-3ft lbs from a very light 350gr arrow to a more moderately heavy 470gr arrow.
That being considered you should probably just split the difference of the shaft style you listed and maybe look at something like a 2314 if it spines correctly for you...........I ran a few numbers on bowjackson to show you some arrow weights.
29" shaft w/ 100gr point/insert/ bushing Super nock/ 4" feathers
2213= 445gr
2314= 475grs
2315= 506grs
If you consider a typical speed gain of about 1fps for around every 3grs of arrow weight you' d pick up about 10fps with the 2314 vs the 2315 and not give up a whole lot of durability either.
Ever consider A/C/C' s? (still got aluminum in em'
) A/C/C 3-60 or a 3-71 sure pokes a nice hole and they' d gain you a bunch more speed and you would gain durability ! (Both would most likely be over 400grs finished.....)
Say ballpark 410grs for an A/C/C 3-60 at 29" ... that would give you a 30+ fps speed advantage over the 2315 with better durability.
Just thought I' d throw that out there.
Within the weight range you listed KE level changes will be basically a non factor........KE level only rises slightly as arrow weight is increased due to the fact that a bow only has one efficiency level. If all else stays the same (string load, draw weight, draw length ) and only arrow weight changes, then KE level will stay very similar to levels attained with a lighter arrow. Most of my bows have shown an increase of only about 2-3ft lbs from a very light 350gr arrow to a more moderately heavy 470gr arrow.
That being considered you should probably just split the difference of the shaft style you listed and maybe look at something like a 2314 if it spines correctly for you...........I ran a few numbers on bowjackson to show you some arrow weights.
29" shaft w/ 100gr point/insert/ bushing Super nock/ 4" feathers
2213= 445gr
2314= 475grs
2315= 506grs
If you consider a typical speed gain of about 1fps for around every 3grs of arrow weight you' d pick up about 10fps with the 2314 vs the 2315 and not give up a whole lot of durability either.
Ever consider A/C/C' s? (still got aluminum in em'
) A/C/C 3-60 or a 3-71 sure pokes a nice hole and they' d gain you a bunch more speed and you would gain durability ! (Both would most likely be over 400grs finished.....)Say ballpark 410grs for an A/C/C 3-60 at 29" ... that would give you a 30+ fps speed advantage over the 2315 with better durability.
Just thought I' d throw that out there.
04-19-2003, 10:17 PM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Arrow weight?
I personally would choose the thicker wall thickness over the thin.(better penetration)I don' t know why you don' t want carbon but that is for you to decide and not me.I do agree that the ACC would be a good choice but you need to make that decision.
04-20-2003, 07:42 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Arrow weight?
Not to bust on you IL_BOW_MAN, but speaking in general terms - Anybody that blindly buys the arrows a shop recommends is a fool. When I first decided to try carbons I was totally unfamiliar with their spine ratings. Whether by accident or by ignorance, the pro shop sold me arrows that were two sizes underspined for my bow. Considering that most carbons cover 20 pounds of spine range, that' s unforgiveable. But.... it was my own fault.
I went into the shop on a whim, unprepared, without knowing what size arrow to take home and wound up paying for those arrows, plus arrows to replace them. I hear similar stories so often that bad arrow recommendation must be an epidemic in our pro shops! When I bought the second dozen (at a different shop, of course) , I had done my homework and knew exactly what I wanted when I walked in the door.
The tough part about aluminum arrows is you don' t get that 20 pounds of slop like carbon arrows. You' ve got to get within 5 pounds, and that doesn' t give much leeway at all to an ' archery pro' (who, too often, is only a semi-trained monkey that happens to work behind a counter in a bow store). Learn to use arrow spine charts and arrow weight calculators. Keep notes on what arrows shoot best for you. Then you can make your own choices. And always check the numbers on the shafts before you carry them out the door. Sometimes the guy behind the counter can take a grab for one size shaft and wind up with a different size.
I went into the shop on a whim, unprepared, without knowing what size arrow to take home and wound up paying for those arrows, plus arrows to replace them. I hear similar stories so often that bad arrow recommendation must be an epidemic in our pro shops! When I bought the second dozen (at a different shop, of course) , I had done my homework and knew exactly what I wanted when I walked in the door.
The tough part about aluminum arrows is you don' t get that 20 pounds of slop like carbon arrows. You' ve got to get within 5 pounds, and that doesn' t give much leeway at all to an ' archery pro' (who, too often, is only a semi-trained monkey that happens to work behind a counter in a bow store). Learn to use arrow spine charts and arrow weight calculators. Keep notes on what arrows shoot best for you. Then you can make your own choices. And always check the numbers on the shafts before you carry them out the door. Sometimes the guy behind the counter can take a grab for one size shaft and wind up with a different size.
04-20-2003, 08:03 AM
#5
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Panama City Beach FL USA
Posts: 282
RE: Arrow weight?
IL BOW MAN, Im no expert but look at this. A 390gr arrow shot at 250 fps will deliver 54 ft lbs of KE. Increase the weight of the arrow to 400 shoot at the same speed will bring you KE up to 55 ft lbs. Now take the same 390gr arrow and increase your speed to 260 fps and you will get 58 ft lbs of KE. Its not all about arrow weight. Don' t forget velocity gives a fair return to your KE. Just some food for thought.
04-20-2003, 10:01 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Arrow weight?
Todd, when you do your testing remember that an animal is made up of something like 70-75% water. It' s not made of foam. An arrow that will penetrate deepest in foam will not necessarily be the one that penetrates deepest in water - or flesh.
A common fallacy I' ve seen in almost ALL penetration tests I' ve seen published is they are mostly all done on foam targets. Sometimes they throw in a layer or two of thin plywood. Dr. Ed Ashby is the only one I know of that has published results based on actual testing on animal carcasses (the Natal study) and he firmly states that momentum is the best determinant in predicting penetration. Here is what he said in response to a question on Bowsite:
All emphasis is his own, not mine.
If you go with the carbon, make sure the speed increases enough to give you a good level of momentum.
A common fallacy I' ve seen in almost ALL penetration tests I' ve seen published is they are mostly all done on foam targets. Sometimes they throw in a layer or two of thin plywood. Dr. Ed Ashby is the only one I know of that has published results based on actual testing on animal carcasses (the Natal study) and he firmly states that momentum is the best determinant in predicting penetration. Here is what he said in response to a question on Bowsite:
Kinetic energy doesn' t tell one anything - In ALL my field testing so far, KE has shown absolutely NO predictable correlation AT ALL to penetration in real tissues. Momentum isn' t perfect, but it correlates a whole lot better than KE does.
If you go with the carbon, make sure the speed increases enough to give you a good level of momentum.
04-20-2003, 07:01 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vinton VA
Posts: 2,978
RE: Arrow weight?
Well as useual Matt/pa stole my thunder!
. when I shoot aluminu the 2314 is my shaft of choice. It offers better strength than say the 2213 or 2312, while it is lighter than the 2315, enough so that the speed increase is worthwhile. I don' t care what arrow material I shoot be it carbon or aluminun I like arrows that weight between 450 and 475 grns. This gives a good balance of speed, accuracy and arrow weight.
. when I shoot aluminu the 2314 is my shaft of choice. It offers better strength than say the 2213 or 2312, while it is lighter than the 2315, enough so that the speed increase is worthwhile. I don' t care what arrow material I shoot be it carbon or aluminun I like arrows that weight between 450 and 475 grns. This gives a good balance of speed, accuracy and arrow weight.
04-21-2003, 10:01 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: St. Cloud MN USA
Posts: 1,757
RE: Arrow weight?
As long as you have a good amount a KE to start with(over 60) I like to go with lighter arrows. The KE barely changes wether its heavy or light but fast flat arrow are noticable!
