CG

Len,
I know you were liking the "skinny" carbons especially with your MZE. I am looking at the MZE and Trophy Taker for something to play around with (Yea I know... "told you so" ). I've only taken one critter (muley doe) with a poltruded carbon and at the 5 yards I shot her at I think anything would have penetrated so it really didn't show me anything. Are you still using them? I see being able to shoot the skinnier carbons as a big advantage of the drop-aways. They are too slick for my WB and slide through the bristles thus my interest in the MZE and TT (yeah another "I told you so&quot Anyone else shooting the old AFCs or Beman Hunters?

"What we do in this life echos an eternity"

JeffB

CG,

Obviously I am not Len, but I too am considering going back to some of the heavier Pultruded Carbons (Beman or Carbon Tech in particular) for this year with the Trapdoor drop-away that I use.

My DC PAT is so quick, that I'm wanting to tone it down a bit for a hunting rig, and I should be able to get even the heavier pultrudeds going in the 270 to 280 FPS range I desire for hunting.

The biggest thing I have found over the years with PC type arrows is you simply have to take your time setting them up (gluing on outserts & nock adaptors straight etc), and choosing the right backstop (for practice). If you take care in those areas, they are, IMO, the ultimate hunting arrow (assuming of course they spine well, weight match well, etc).

J <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Jerry/NJ

I am using them also. I just made up some for 3-D, yep 3-D! Jeff nailed it, take your time and make sure everything is straight. I use the MZE and TT and no more fletch clearance issues like in the past although I was able to tune them anyhow. Like Jeff said, with the speed of bows nowadays, a heavier arrow like the Beman Hunter 380's will make an excellent shaft choice. Good choice IMO

*Become a better shot —> practice, don't just shoot*

tm

I like them for elk and bigger animals and think they do out penetrate any other shafts. With my setup I like a lighter arrow for deer size and smaller game. I use the Cabelas SST as they seem a little heavier and stiffer than Beman or AFC.

Len in Maryland

You have been given some good recommendations if you want to successfully use the 'skinny' carbons. They are, by far, the strongest production arrow that we've ever tested. The strength comes from the smaller diameter, resulting in a thicker wall thickness, and the point adapters which control/captivate the longitudinal forces. The advent of the drop-away rests has eliminated several of the problems that many didn't like about these arrows - mainly fletching clearance and nock bump.

There are several ways to assure good straight arrow construction. Use 5 minute epoxy as a minimum, but 24 hour epoxy would be better for both strength and the ability to adjust the point adapter. In adjusting the point adapter for straightness, an arrow spiner is recommended. Spinning the arrow and adjusting the point adapter as the epoxy cures will assure great broadhead flight. If you use the standard nocks, press them on and twist for straightness. If you use the G-nock adapters, use the same process as with the point adapters stated previously.

Check your arrows periodically, especially when grouping/slamming arrows during practice. The way to check them is to hold them at each end and try to twist it. If the arrow does not flex/twist, it is good. If it has ANY flex to it, throw it away. This means that the spine has been broken and the arrow could break further during the shooting process.

The reason many couldn't use helical fletching in the past was fletching clearance on standard prong rests. The drop-away rests have eliminated this problem so that you can now use maximum helical.

I hope this helps many better understand this much maligned arrow. I've seen 15,000+ shots on these arrow and they're still going strong.

CAJUNBOWHNTR

I've been shooting AFC V-max's for several years and have had good luck with them.I am now in need of new arrows and trying to decide what to shoot.I was considering switching to the newer wrapped shafts to get away from the outserts on the pultruded types.But alot of the newer arrows are to light for my liking.The recent addition of the drop away rests has me thinking about staying with the pultruded shafts and going to a drop away to eliminate tuning issues with the small shaft diameter.How good are the cabelas sst's? Jeff what about the carbon tech,never heard of those.

CB

WHACKEM N STACKEM

Pinwheel 12

Some of the pultruded carbons worked well, especially if you got the ones spined heavier than what you were shooting for poundage, I shot AFC 2300's for a few seasons out of my hunting setups with great results back in the late 80's and early 90's.

That being said, I can tell you why they are now pretty much obsolete, and that is due to the fact that the spine will go out of them much more quickly than a comparable carbon arrow shaft that is biased-wrapped. (fibers going both ways) The pultruded design only allows fibers to run longitudinally, (length of the arrow shaft)and by doing this the individual fibers have a greater chance to all bend together, and it was discovered that this happened on numerous occasions in all conditions, and is the direct reason why the pultruded arrows were eventually upgraded. I lost a regional tournament in 110 degree heat because the spine went completely out of TWO AFC 2100's while shooting them. I mean these arrows went completely sideways when they came out of the bow, and one floated over the top of the target, and the second hit the target sideways! I had been running a good score until both incidents happened and the bow was correctly tuned and the arrows correctly spined. Upon inspection it was found that the fibers along the high spine had weakened on some of the previous shots, and then simply &quot;went south&quot; in the heat. I saw and heard of many more incidents such as this happening during that time period.

Moral of the story: There is a reason why they faded out and were upgraded to the biased designs we see today. This is not to say that a heavier pultruded will not work in hunting applications where you will not be taking thousands of shots with them, and the penetration exceeds any other shaft I've shot to date, but it is just not worth the extra worry to me not knowing whether they will stand up or not at a critical moment, already having fell to this issue on a previous occasion. Just something to chew on. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12





Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/23/2003 11:59:59

CG

Pinwheel,
Do you think it was the heat more than the repetition of shooting? Just curious because Lens says that he has seen 15,000+ shots out of some....I wonder if it also has something to do with size. I'm looking at the 2400 or 2540 size or comparable size shafts. Do you think there would be consequences since most of my hunting is in Sept. where temps can reach into the 90's. I shoot almost daily starting in May until Sept. so some of my arrows could be pushing a 1000 shots on them. Thanks for all of the advice so far. Has anyone else seen anything like Pinwheel's experience?

&quot;What we do in this life echos an eternity&quot;

Pinwheel 12

I really think it has more to do with the design than anything else. As we all know, every arrow paradoxes coming out of the bow. Some materials take repeated flexings better than others, combinations of materials even better yet, and barrel-shaped designs better still. It has been found that altho carbon in itself is very strong and will take alot of abuse, when flexed repeatedly this material takes on a different character. When these fibers are made to run in a unified single direction such flexings can break down this initial strength much faster than if they are made in an alternating-direction-multi-layer process. That is why todays' carbons are much lighter than those previous models were, yet can readily hold the same spine range. If you built a biased arrow the same weight as a pultruded it would be able to withstand shots of a significantly higher poundage. That is also why carbon limbs are all built with a multi-directional fusion process.

Again, I'm not condemning the pultrudeds, I am merely suggesting that there are now much better shaft configurations on todays' market IMHO, as well as in that you now do not have to utilize those nasty outserts with most of todays' ICS components. If you want to try the pultrudeds, you can do so rather cheaply, but if shooting thousands of shots in 80-90 degree heat is your game, you may want to think twice about it IMHO, or at the very least make sure you learn to always twist-check your arrows after your shots as Len pointed out above. Even that does not always tell the tale however, as I got into that habit after every shot but those two went on me at the most inopportune time anyway. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12





Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/23/2003 14:31:43

Len in Maryland

I can understand PW12's concern. I will also say that I found the AFC's of those days to be of lesser quality than their Beman counterpart.

The Beman point adapter was not only a tighter fit, but it accepted more of the arrow. The standard nocks were also inferior. And, Beman now offers a G-nock adapter that captivates the 'other' end of the arrow.

As far as the point adapters, I would love to see someone offer them for the wrapped carbon arrows. What PW12 says about the strength of wrapped is correct; but, a heavy pultruded carbon is hard to beat for hunting/penetration. Part of the strength is directly due to the point adapter; or, as some say, outsert.

Whatever you choose to shoot, shoot straight, shoot safe.