pdq 5oh

fatchazz, I agree with the others regarding the Pat Dually as a better chioce. But then I like dual cams. The higher brace will be a welcome extra.
wwag, is your handle a result of that old PSE?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

walks with a gimp

Pdq, no I got dumb one day and thought I'd have a wrestling match with a John Deere tractor.... I lost. now I walk with a gimp.

pdq 5oh

wwag, sorry to hear of your accident. Hope I didn't upset you, I was joking around. Take care.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

JeffB

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pdq, no I got dumb one day and thought I'd have a wrestling match with a John Deere tractor.... I lost. now I walk with a gimp.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

WWAG,

I too am sorry to hear about your accident.

You are lucky in one way though..you say &quot;I got dumb one day&quot;. I on the other hand was born that way, and Kim tells me quite often that things have not changed since! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Jason McCurry

Pinwheel, can you explain to me exactly where the extra stress is being applied and what it's doing? I'm not familiar with the term prestress, so I'm not really clear on why it's bad. As you may remember, I have a Legacy now and I've heard you express the problem as a pet peeve of yours. Is it something that affects the user (i.e.- makes the draw cycle rougher, reduced consistancy and therfore accuracy, etc.) or is it something that more directly affects the bow (i.e.- accelerated wear on bow parts, loss of energy that could be transferred to the arrow instead, etc.)?

Thanks!

Edited by - Jason McCurry on 01/14/2003 16:52:42

Twaang

Pinwheel - oooh - thanks - that makes sense to me now. (insert pic of lightbulb going on here)

...if you watch the cables on a bow as it is drawed, the cables move, albeit slightly to the aft as they follow the cams. with the fixed rollers, they become a pivot point for the cables which end up imparting a load on the limbs.

Twaang

Pinwheel 12

Jason--

The extra stress is being directed to the radius of the limb due to it's excess tip travel, which is caused by the stationary roller as opposed to one that allows the cables to move.(Q2 for instance) If the limbtips move an extra say 1&quot; or so due to the stationary roller, this in turn puts much more stress on the radius of those limbs. All limbs have a certain deflection value. (weight rating) If the limb's deflection value is say 60 pounds, when you install that limb on a Legacy and add the extra 9lbs or so of prestress created by the roller guide, you are effectively turning that 60lb limb into a 69 lb limb. So a factory spec 70lb bow will essentially have 60lbs limbs on it that are cranked to 70. This excess stress will wear the limbs faster and they have a greater possibly to exhibit failure due to it. It also throws more shock thru the bow because you are stressing a lighter limb above it's range.

We used to prestress limbs back in the 80's in an attempt to get more speed out of the bows, and it does neither the limb nor the bow any good to do this IMO. I witnessed many limb failures due to such moves and other &quot;tricks&quot;, and had since thought that we were safely beyond that era. Guess not. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12



Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/14/2003 19:58:53

Jason McCurry

Ok.. so more shock through the bow and more of a chance of limb failure. Anyone know Legacy limb failure rate versus other non-rollerguard Mathews bows? I can't help but think that the limbs are designed for the system so they handle this extra stress and are rated accordingly. Am I wrong and Mathews is putting the same limbs on the Legacy as they put on other non-rollerguard bows? Is the more shock something only along the limb that the hand wouldn't feel, or is it the same as what most people refer to as shock? If a somehow mobile version of the rollerguard were devised, the bow would have less shock? Good Lord, let's hope they do that then. My Legacy now had barely any shock at all (less than any other bow I tried) bare and has zero now that I've got the Stealth stab on it. I can't imagine a bow with less shock than this one has.

walks with a gimp

Pdq & JeffB, I really hate to admit it but I've really been dumb for more than just one day<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle> On that day I was really lucky and am glad I'm here to tell you I'm smarter now<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> The only thing is now I've got a bigger tractor!

Pinwheel12, I wonder if there is a certain formula one could come up with to find out what brace height would be considered forgiving for short draw shooters? Say a 7 inch is the acceptable minimum for a 30 inch shooter, could one assume that a slightly lower brace would be as forgiving for a 26 inch shooter? Otherwise a short draw shooter would be giving up more of the power stroke and speed. I'm thinking about the duration the arrow is on the string in relation to the time the bow is reacting to the torque induced to the bow by the shooter. Another example would be a 33 inch shooter with a bow that has a 7 inch brace. Am I confused yet?

Pinwheel 12

Jason-

Mathews design engineers are no dummies, to say so would be ludicrous. However I really feel they may have simply &quot;bonked&quot; on this one,(we all do on occasion, no-one is perfect) much like they did some years ago when they called the original straightline cam &quot;straight&quot;. It wasn't, and they had to design the straightline 2 to get there a couple of years later. (That is another story! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) If say we go with your theory that the Legacy was &quot;designed&quot; for the roller guide and extra prestress, then what about the Icon? Certainly it has a different geometry and does not have the same parallel design of the Legacy, yet still offers the roller guide also? This alone arouses my suspicion when the same product is offered on two different bows with different geometries/designs. I would thus have to assume that they do not go to great lengths to match up this limb and that limb and individual deflections with each and every model, but rather they more than likely have a few specific limb blank lengths and deflection values that they choose from same as everyone else in the industry. They simply install the designated length limb from the stockpile to reach the poundage rating they are looking for on each model, same as any other manufacturer. If so then the excess prestress issue has merit IMHO.(grabbing a 60lb limb to reach 70 in the Legacy's case) Let me strongly state that if you are happy with your bow and are confident in it, that's fine by me, by all means enjoy your bow!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I do lots of testing on alot of different brands of bows and feel that people should know about issues that COULD possibly affect the bows themselves or COULD be potentially susceptable to failure later down the road. I do this type of testing with all bows, and I don't &quot;pick&quot; on Mathews exclusively.(read the Hoyt cam and a half posts on various boards where I found an interesting issue as well for instance) I feel Mathews makes fine products,(in fact my son still shoots an MQ1) but to summarize this is the reasoning behind my &quot;peeve&quot; on the roller guard system and why I would not choose one, myself. Whatever floats your boat, we are all individuals and have different likes and dislikes.

WWAG-

You've been thinking!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Currently I know of no such specific &quot;formula&quot;, however there are factors involved as you have mentioned above. A shorter-draw archer has a shorter power stroke, yes, therefore any reduced brace height will not have as much effect as it would on a longer draw archer you are correct, this is good thinking and basically common sense. However, there are many variables that come into play here and it becomes highly technical, as it is not as simple as differeing brace heights itself that determines a bows' overall forgiveness. ATA, overall bow geometry,(riser design and relation to the shooter, limb angle, cam design, letoff, and dynamic spine of the individual arrow used) all play a part in forgiveness. (and performance!) I always recommend a bow with at least 7&quot; brace height at all drawlengths for best accuracy in a given application. Lately we see a multitude of bows in the 28&quot; -34&quot; ATA categories being sought after for hunting and 3D applications, but we must be realistic about their ultimate accuracy. Some use them for 3D, but take notice of what the Pros are shooting in the same format. (38-40&quot; or more with decent brace heights) There is a reason why they are shooting what they are shooting! I shoot a 31&quot; bow myself for treestand hunting as this is what these shorter ATA bows were primarily designed for-- (short, liteweight bows for use in thicker cover and limited shot distances) but I also know I wouldn't be shooting it at say the Redding Tournament with distances out to 100 yds. I also wouldn't shoot it more than just occasionally and locally at 3D shoots even, as it just does not offer the same accuracy as a longer bow with deeper brace.

The bottom line here is application and individual accuracy and what you can expect from a setup in relation to your individual skill level. What do you expect out of yourself as an archer? If you expect to hit a golfball consistently at 40 yds as I do, well you simply are not going to get that with a short brace and ATA bow, no matter what the drawlength. But if you want to shoot hunting shots at say 20-30yds and keep them in an 8&quot; circle, yes, you can do that with some of the shorter ATA and brace bows, but I still recommend a decent (over 7&quot brace height regardless. If quite proficent you can even shrink that size and stretch the distance a little should you feel you can. Each individual is different, as are their shooting skills, proficency, and preferred application(s). We must be very aware of our individual skill levels and not try and fool ourselves on this or one can end up missing or wounding alot of game and/or watching scores plummet. If one keeps the 7&quot; brace height limitation in their minds as a &quot;standard&quot; no matter what their drawlength or ATA, I feel they are in much better shape than those who run less. I have yet to see anyone who runs a shorter brace height NOT have at least some contact with heavier clothing at some point also, and that alone can be the difference between harvesting that 10 pointer and either missing him or worse yet wounding him and never recovering him. Now that the twins are seemingly &quot;back&quot;, there is no need to run super-low brace heights anymore to gain the speed which the solos needed to be competitive, and I'd personally like to see more bows go back into the 8&quot; brace range myself. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12