vanes vs blades
07-26-2007, 11:20 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: West Tennessee
Posts: 2,333
RE: vanes vs blades
hey little chief,
you should read my posts in the bowhunting section, do you own a banjo ???
you should read my posts in the bowhunting section, do you own a banjo ???
07-26-2007, 01:15 PM
#12
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 996
RE: vanes vs blades
anyways, thx for the info, getting my arrowtuning gear when I get paid.
One thing I don't seem to find around here is an arrowspinner ora that gadget to check the inserts with.
F.
07-26-2007, 01:21 PM
#13
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: vanes vs blades
One thing I don't seem to find around here is an arrowspinner...
Really, arrow spinners are easy to make with regular household handyman tools. Here's a link to a thread on homemade arrow spinners.http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2124686&mpage=1&key=í¿›í±”
07-26-2007, 05:16 PM
#14
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 510
RE: vanes vs blades
DannyD,
This will start some stuff, but I shoot straight fletch. I gave up on helical fletching 18yrs ago. So I don't have arrow spin. My arrows fly very straight. I don't have any problems, but I am shooting 5" vanes and XX75 arrows. The 2314s I am using are cut to 26" on a 30" draw, tipped with a Muzzy 130gr broaddhead and I am shooting 70lbs at 260'/sec. I have had many people like Dave say it won't work, but it does. I have killed enough big game animals to prove it to me.
Gselkhunter
This will start some stuff, but I shoot straight fletch. I gave up on helical fletching 18yrs ago. So I don't have arrow spin. My arrows fly very straight. I don't have any problems, but I am shooting 5" vanes and XX75 arrows. The 2314s I am using are cut to 26" on a 30" draw, tipped with a Muzzy 130gr broaddhead and I am shooting 70lbs at 260'/sec. I have had many people like Dave say it won't work, but it does. I have killed enough big game animals to prove it to me.
Gselkhunter
07-27-2007, 04:14 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
Posts: 2,188
RE: vanes vs blades
ORIGINAL: gselkhunter
DannyD,
This will start some stuff, but I shoot straight fletch. I gave up on helical fletching 18yrs ago. So I don't have arrow spin. My arrows fly very straight. I don't have any problems, but I am shooting 5" vanes and XX75 arrows. The 2314s I am using are cut to 26" on a 30" draw, tipped with a Muzzy 130gr broaddhead and I am shooting 70lbs at 260'/sec. I have had many people like Dave say it won't work, but it does. I have killed enough big game animals to prove it to me.
Gselkhunter
DannyD,
This will start some stuff, but I shoot straight fletch. I gave up on helical fletching 18yrs ago. So I don't have arrow spin. My arrows fly very straight. I don't have any problems, but I am shooting 5" vanes and XX75 arrows. The 2314s I am using are cut to 26" on a 30" draw, tipped with a Muzzy 130gr broaddhead and I am shooting 70lbs at 260'/sec. I have had many people like Dave say it won't work, but it does. I have killed enough big game animals to prove it to me.
Gselkhunter
07-27-2007, 05:19 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: vanes vs blades
While I would not favor the approach myself, the 5" straight vanes must have enough drag to stabilize the arrow with the broadhead. I'm also willing to bet that the arrow is coming off the bow/rest dang straight to begin with.
Broadhead alignment with the arrow is important, and an arrow spinner is an easy, relatively inexpensive tool to check it. Blade alignment of any type is not usually important, unless arrow spine is on the weak side, or the bow has a lot of nock travel. I remember having to set up old Beman Hunters with one blade facing straight up to get broadheads to fly with my field points when shooting the early one cam Jennings and Bear bows, but they had like 1" of nock travel back then. With the bows I've been using the last few years, it doesn't matter whether I'm shooting a 3 or 4 blade, or what the orientation of the blades is. If they spin right, they fly right. I am only shooting arrows at about 270 fps though.
Broadhead alignment with the arrow is important, and an arrow spinner is an easy, relatively inexpensive tool to check it. Blade alignment of any type is not usually important, unless arrow spine is on the weak side, or the bow has a lot of nock travel. I remember having to set up old Beman Hunters with one blade facing straight up to get broadheads to fly with my field points when shooting the early one cam Jennings and Bear bows, but they had like 1" of nock travel back then. With the bows I've been using the last few years, it doesn't matter whether I'm shooting a 3 or 4 blade, or what the orientation of the blades is. If they spin right, they fly right. I am only shooting arrows at about 270 fps though.
07-27-2007, 05:40 AM
#17
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 510
RE: vanes vs blades
Dave,
When I started shooting 260'/sec with an overdraw back in 89 that was extreme speed for the time. Going to 300'/sec won't gain me enough to bother with. Not to mention you get to the point ofbeing unstable with big broadheads. I have no desire to shoot expandables. And I am blowing big holes out the back side of elk at 40yds now. I will stay with what is working. All the new fancy design that is out there and carbon arrows can't kill them any more dead than what I am doing now. Plus my big old logs are putting less stress on my bow and my broadhead are still flying true out at 80yds. Do I really need more? And the truth about arrow flight is the right match of arrow/broadhead for the bow and perfect tuning. And the shooter has to be able to shoot his/her set up. I have been around the game for some time now and see way too many people trying to shoot the new fastest bow out there that is poorly tuned and they have crap form. They can't tune it because it is too high tech for them and are very unhappy when something goes wrong with the bow in the field. My set up is very simple and dependable. This attitude may make me anal, so be it. Butwhen I walk into field I am ready to kill an animal with one shot and there is no question ifmy set up or myself can do it.I can live with that.
Back to the issue of X vs +, as the arrow starts forward on the rest the initial thrust from the bow string is where the broadhead starts planing. An air plane starts gaining lift as soon as it starts gaining speed. Once the arrow leaves the string the vanes/feathers take over and guide the arrow to its target. So it is of great importance how you get the arrow off the string. This is where all your tuning, arrow shaft stiffness vs poundage come into play. The X reduces planing pure and simple.
Gselkhunter
When I started shooting 260'/sec with an overdraw back in 89 that was extreme speed for the time. Going to 300'/sec won't gain me enough to bother with. Not to mention you get to the point ofbeing unstable with big broadheads. I have no desire to shoot expandables. And I am blowing big holes out the back side of elk at 40yds now. I will stay with what is working. All the new fancy design that is out there and carbon arrows can't kill them any more dead than what I am doing now. Plus my big old logs are putting less stress on my bow and my broadhead are still flying true out at 80yds. Do I really need more? And the truth about arrow flight is the right match of arrow/broadhead for the bow and perfect tuning. And the shooter has to be able to shoot his/her set up. I have been around the game for some time now and see way too many people trying to shoot the new fastest bow out there that is poorly tuned and they have crap form. They can't tune it because it is too high tech for them and are very unhappy when something goes wrong with the bow in the field. My set up is very simple and dependable. This attitude may make me anal, so be it. Butwhen I walk into field I am ready to kill an animal with one shot and there is no question ifmy set up or myself can do it.I can live with that.
Back to the issue of X vs +, as the arrow starts forward on the rest the initial thrust from the bow string is where the broadhead starts planing. An air plane starts gaining lift as soon as it starts gaining speed. Once the arrow leaves the string the vanes/feathers take over and guide the arrow to its target. So it is of great importance how you get the arrow off the string. This is where all your tuning, arrow shaft stiffness vs poundage come into play. The X reduces planing pure and simple.
Gselkhunter
07-27-2007, 06:50 AM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,414
RE: vanes vs blades
ORIGINAL: gselkhunter
DannyD,
This will start some stuff, but I shoot straight fletch. I gave up on helical fletching 18yrs ago. So I don't have arrow spin. My arrows fly very straight. I don't have any problems, but I am shooting 5" vanes and XX75 arrows. The 2314s I am using are cut to 26" on a 30" draw, tipped with a Muzzy 130gr broaddhead and I am shooting 70lbs at 260'/sec. I have had many people like Dave say it won't work, but it does. I have killed enough big game animals to prove it to me.
Gselkhunter
gselkhunter
I appreciate the explaination and believe me I am way too inexperienced to say that this is that is flat out wrong or absolutley correct. My question that would still remain though is that if your arrows dont spin, no matter what angle the blades are alligned (X vs +), wouldn't the arrow plane at the angle you allign them? For example: if you were to set tham at a + configuration you are saying that the arrow may plane at a 180 or 90 degree angle right?
So if they are alligned in an X configuration wouldnt they just plane at 45 degree angles? Again assuming that the arrow was going to plane at a + configuration.
It would be like an airplane flighing with a profile like this /. The tendency would be for that plane to drift high left or low right.
DannyD,
This will start some stuff, but I shoot straight fletch. I gave up on helical fletching 18yrs ago. So I don't have arrow spin. My arrows fly very straight. I don't have any problems, but I am shooting 5" vanes and XX75 arrows. The 2314s I am using are cut to 26" on a 30" draw, tipped with a Muzzy 130gr broaddhead and I am shooting 70lbs at 260'/sec. I have had many people like Dave say it won't work, but it does. I have killed enough big game animals to prove it to me.
Gselkhunter
gselkhunter
I appreciate the explaination and believe me I am way too inexperienced to say that this is that is flat out wrong or absolutley correct. My question that would still remain though is that if your arrows dont spin, no matter what angle the blades are alligned (X vs +), wouldn't the arrow plane at the angle you allign them? For example: if you were to set tham at a + configuration you are saying that the arrow may plane at a 180 or 90 degree angle right?
So if they are alligned in an X configuration wouldnt they just plane at 45 degree angles? Again assuming that the arrow was going to plane at a + configuration.
It would be like an airplane flighing with a profile like this /. The tendency would be for that plane to drift high left or low right.
07-27-2007, 07:58 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
Posts: 2,188
RE: vanes vs blades
ORIGINAL: gselkhunter
Dave,
When I started shooting 260'/sec with an overdraw back in 89 that was extreme speed for the time. Going to 300'/sec won't gain me enough to bother with. Not to mention you get to the point ofbeing unstable with big broadheads. I have no desire to shoot expandables. And I am blowing big holes out the back side of elk at 40yds now. I will stay with what is working. All the new fancy design that is out there and carbon arrows can't kill them any more dead than what I am doing now. Plus my big old logs are putting less stress on my bow and my broadhead are still flying true out at 80yds. Do I really need more? And the truth about arrow flight is the right match of arrow/broadhead for the bow and perfect tuning. And the shooter has to be able to shoot his/her set up. I have been around the game for some time now and see way too many people trying to shoot the new fastest bow out there that is poorly tuned and they have crap form. They can't tune it because it is too high tech for them and are very unhappy when something goes wrong with the bow in the field. My set up is very simple and dependable. This attitude may make me anal, so be it. Butwhen I walk into field I am ready to kill an animal with one shot and there is no question ifmy set up or myself can do it.I can live with that.
Back to the issue of X vs +, as the arrow starts forward on the rest the initial thrust from the bow string is where the broadhead starts planing. An air plane starts gaining lift as soon as it starts gaining speed. Once the arrow leaves the string the vanes/feathers take over and guide the arrow to its target. So it is of great importance how you get the arrow off the string. This is where all your tuning, arrow shaft stiffness vs poundage come into play. The X reduces planing pure and simple.
Gselkhunter
Dave,
When I started shooting 260'/sec with an overdraw back in 89 that was extreme speed for the time. Going to 300'/sec won't gain me enough to bother with. Not to mention you get to the point ofbeing unstable with big broadheads. I have no desire to shoot expandables. And I am blowing big holes out the back side of elk at 40yds now. I will stay with what is working. All the new fancy design that is out there and carbon arrows can't kill them any more dead than what I am doing now. Plus my big old logs are putting less stress on my bow and my broadhead are still flying true out at 80yds. Do I really need more? And the truth about arrow flight is the right match of arrow/broadhead for the bow and perfect tuning. And the shooter has to be able to shoot his/her set up. I have been around the game for some time now and see way too many people trying to shoot the new fastest bow out there that is poorly tuned and they have crap form. They can't tune it because it is too high tech for them and are very unhappy when something goes wrong with the bow in the field. My set up is very simple and dependable. This attitude may make me anal, so be it. Butwhen I walk into field I am ready to kill an animal with one shot and there is no question ifmy set up or myself can do it.I can live with that.
Back to the issue of X vs +, as the arrow starts forward on the rest the initial thrust from the bow string is where the broadhead starts planing. An air plane starts gaining lift as soon as it starts gaining speed. Once the arrow leaves the string the vanes/feathers take over and guide the arrow to its target. So it is of great importance how you get the arrow off the string. This is where all your tuning, arrow shaft stiffness vs poundage come into play. The X reduces planing pure and simple.
Gselkhunter
I didn't ask for a reason why you shoot what you shoot or an explanation. I'm stating what's needed for the faster equipment. You can find a lot of articles on the issue of fast bows and fixed broadheads.
My equipment is tuned properly and proven so through different methods. I bought a new bow and chosen the bow on how it feels to me not it's speed. A great bi-product is that it's fast and quiet. I choose to shoot carbon after 20+ yrs of aluminum. I choose to shoot Blazers because they do the job.
The large solid 1 blade broadheads are the only heads I could see setting up a certain way to stop planing. As described by Joe. Even with an X you have the same upward lift on the blades that you do with a +.
You can get great performance with the shorter BH's without going to expandables.
I have good form and my equipment is tuned correctly.
However, even with that you can have issues with broadheads.
07-28-2007, 06:21 AM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 510
RE: vanes vs blades
DannyD go try it for yourself. I have a friend that was trying to just screw on Muzzy 4 blade broadheads and they woudn't shoot straight. He got so pissed he went out and purchased some Steel Force. And he got those to shoot. When I was at his house we talked about it and I put the broadheads on the shafts and they shot like darts.
The issues with broadheads are many. Is the broadhead perfectly straight, is it straight on the shaft, is the insert perfect[a bad insert can cause more problems than you want to deal with], are the vanes big enough to stablize the broadhead, does the broadhead/shaft balance, is the nock straight to the arrow shaft. I still spin arrows on the tip on the table, if it wobbles at all it probably won't shoot. You see it more in carbons shafts where you have a heavyspot in the arrow and it won't shoot a broadhead no matter what you do. Easton shafts would come with a swedge that wasn't straight and you could never get the nock on straight and that arrow wouldn't shoot a broadhead. I can go on and on. And the micro changes that can be made to a bow to have it ready to shoot broadheads is just as many if not more than the arrow shaft itself. I build my arrows, I tune my bow, no one else ever touches it. Here is my bottom line, I don't do something because somebody else says it is the best way, example I don't paper tune my bow. I have a better way. I am not looking to see broadheads group at 20 yds, not good enough for me, I want 6" groups at 80yds with broadheads. To me that is a tuned system. The only way it happens for me is if the 4 blade broadhead is an X. And if it sounds like I think I am better than everybody else, I don't mean to sound that way because I am not. But I take my bowhunting very seriouslybecause I am going to take an animals life and I owe it tothat animal, a quick death so it suffers as little as possible. I do things that aren't supposed to work, but they do and I found them by trial and error. Don't be afraid to try something and don't settle for OK, shoot for perfect.
Gselkhunter
The issues with broadheads are many. Is the broadhead perfectly straight, is it straight on the shaft, is the insert perfect[a bad insert can cause more problems than you want to deal with], are the vanes big enough to stablize the broadhead, does the broadhead/shaft balance, is the nock straight to the arrow shaft. I still spin arrows on the tip on the table, if it wobbles at all it probably won't shoot. You see it more in carbons shafts where you have a heavyspot in the arrow and it won't shoot a broadhead no matter what you do. Easton shafts would come with a swedge that wasn't straight and you could never get the nock on straight and that arrow wouldn't shoot a broadhead. I can go on and on. And the micro changes that can be made to a bow to have it ready to shoot broadheads is just as many if not more than the arrow shaft itself. I build my arrows, I tune my bow, no one else ever touches it. Here is my bottom line, I don't do something because somebody else says it is the best way, example I don't paper tune my bow. I have a better way. I am not looking to see broadheads group at 20 yds, not good enough for me, I want 6" groups at 80yds with broadheads. To me that is a tuned system. The only way it happens for me is if the 4 blade broadhead is an X. And if it sounds like I think I am better than everybody else, I don't mean to sound that way because I am not. But I take my bowhunting very seriouslybecause I am going to take an animals life and I owe it tothat animal, a quick death so it suffers as little as possible. I do things that aren't supposed to work, but they do and I found them by trial and error. Don't be afraid to try something and don't settle for OK, shoot for perfect.
Gselkhunter