Tuning process
12-30-2002, 09:30 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vermilion Ohio
Posts: 183
RE: Tuning process
okydoke...here goes.
you can only get an arrow to fly so perfect and you're done w/that aspect of tuning. if you need to be finer tuned than a perfectly flying arrow then you can do a number of things.
first off you can tiller tune your limbs so that the bow sits in your hand more comfortably. it also gives you a bit more flexibility in controling your weight (energy) transfer from the string to the shaft. when you do this it will change your knocking point.
second you can use offseting stabalizers (v'bars) to cut down on side torque.
if you're setting up a hunting bow i would recommend taking the quiver off of your bow and hooking it on your treestand once in your stand. this will also reduce side torque.
those 2 top suggestions are used mostly for target setups and i would say that they would be overkill for a hunting setup
you can only get an arrow to fly so perfect and you're done w/that aspect of tuning. if you need to be finer tuned than a perfectly flying arrow then you can do a number of things.
first off you can tiller tune your limbs so that the bow sits in your hand more comfortably. it also gives you a bit more flexibility in controling your weight (energy) transfer from the string to the shaft. when you do this it will change your knocking point.
second you can use offseting stabalizers (v'bars) to cut down on side torque.
if you're setting up a hunting bow i would recommend taking the quiver off of your bow and hooking it on your treestand once in your stand. this will also reduce side torque.
those 2 top suggestions are used mostly for target setups and i would say that they would be overkill for a hunting setup
12-31-2002, 01:00 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 144
RE: Tuning process
Jerry, I have to go along with your tuning process almost completly as this is pretty much what I have settled into. I do use paper tuning to get an initial setup though but if your fletches haven't straightened out your arrow in 20 - 30 yards you've got more troubles than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I think part of the disagreement may come from folks that are more used to tuning for long range target shooting (80-90 yds.)versus tuning for a hunting setup. I am no expert and certainly not a great shot, but I have found that by using a system very close to yours I wind up with a very forgiving setup that is more tolerant of form imperfections that are the norm rather than the exception in hunting situations especially from a treestand in awkward shooting positions. By tuning my bow this way I find that I can group to my ability (10 ring on a McKinsey (sp?) 3D target) out to 40yds. with an assortment of arrows including fletched field points, 3 different brands and styles of fixed broadheads and bare shaft all shot one after the other at random. I'll admit I usually don't shoot the bare shafts much past 30yds. though. I know this ain't great accuracy but it gives me confidence in those less than perfect situations. Maybe not worth 2 cents but for whatever it is worth, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
12-31-2002, 06:50 AM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Tuning process
OK, this may take awhile, but I'll do my best here. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
The tuning process isn't all that hard to figure out if you start with the basics:
1) Shaft and vane selection
2) paper tuning
3) group tuning
4) "Supertuning" (what I call creep tuning)
Over the years many arrow companies have devised charts and computer programs to help you quickly find the spine range that is best suited to individual applications.(AA and TAP are both excellent programs, and the Easton charts are very close across the board) Due to this, they are good reference points for most setups. The guys that normally go away from these charts or programs are those looking for a lighter weight arrow to compete in 3D, or those who are simply rebellious to begin with! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> It's all handled for you, let them do the work, IMHO.
All arrows paradox (bend) when they leave the bow, and as stated above in my first post, will bend differently due to differentials in their configurations and/or power source. To gain the best groupings and accuracy, this paradox must be negated as quickly as possible. Those who tune to a bullet hole through paper at 6 or 9' produce a "knuckleball effect" on the arrow and it will take longer for it to paradox correctly, thus IMHO is not the best choice for supreme accuracy at all distances. What top shooters and techs have found over the years is that an 11:00 tail-high left tear approx 1/4"-1/2" (right handed shooter with release) at 6-9' will produce a faster and more repeatable paradox on the arrow coming out of the bow, thus the arrow is more accurate. My findings have coincided with this theory, and I've been tuning to this tear with all of my setups for years, as it gives the arrow "purpose".
Most top archers go directly to group tuning and Supertuning after choosing a correctly-spined arrow and "roughing it in", and through this process have come to the tear mentioned above after correctly tuning for best groups at all yardages and Supertuning. Most tune out to at least 40 yds, I personally go to 60, even on my hunting setups. Small adjustments are all that is needed usually, either on the nocking point or rest, or in some instances timing of the cams. (supertuning) It is admittedly tougher to get consistent groupings at longer distances unless you use a machine, but by doing it yourself, you implement the individual "forgiveness factor" and know what you are capable of. (This is big also when it comes to getting your individual tune) I start at 20, tune for groups, then check my Supertuning.(twin cam only, sorry, they are more infinitely tunable) Then 40yd groups, then 60yd groups. Slight adjustments in tiller can also help you hold better. Sometimes all it takes is a 1/4 turn to bring everything in.
This process cannot be rushed, and is up to each individual to determine how accurate they want to be and how tight they wish to get their groups. I personally have both target bows and hunting bows, and I recommend tuning to each specific setup, not trying to run everything together when it comes to field tips/broadheads. Like the bare shaft and fletched shaft differential, shooting fixed blade broadheads and field points are two different animals also, and due to different lengths of ferrule/drag on blades, etc, have different aerodynamics and will fly differently. (and should!) If you tune both together to get a "happy medium", then that is what you get, and you cannot get the utmost out of either setup without directly tuning to that individual configuration. All depends on what you want out of it, and how accurate you feel you should be for either the tournaments you participate in, or for the game you seek. Personally, it's a no-brainer for me, and I work very hard to make sure my setups are as precise as I can get them. It gives me ultimate confidence in my equipment knowing I've done all I can do, and gives me one less thing to worry about when the 10 pt is standing out in front of my stand at 30 yds, or I'm taking aim at a 11 ring on a McKensie Turkey at 48.
As mentioned by Jerry above, he states that he now has no way to gain a spine check if he eliminates bare shafting-- he shouldn't need to check however if he stays within the limits of the charts/programs and reads them correctly, and the groups at distance will readily tell the tale irregardless. Spine can usually be readily controlled by a crank or two on the limbs, also. I find in some instances I may need to crank a pound or two one way or the other for perfect flight, which is really not a biggie.(I tune my bow to the arrows, not the arrows to the bow!) And, once you get used to your bow/bows/setups over time, you can readily determine which shaft/point combination will fly well out of that bow at your preferred drawlength and poundage. Most bows have a decent "comfort range" within which one can choose a number of different shaft/point combinations that will readily tune, but they should all be tuned individually IMO. As mentioned, seeing as the bare shafts do not have the same flight characteristics as the fletched shafts to begin with, one should not try to get them to fly the same, because they are thus taking away from the correct and proper tune of the fletched shaft that they will be using for the actual application.
Whew! Did that make any sense to anyone? I hope so! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Happy New Year!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12
The tuning process isn't all that hard to figure out if you start with the basics:
1) Shaft and vane selection
2) paper tuning
3) group tuning
4) "Supertuning" (what I call creep tuning)
Over the years many arrow companies have devised charts and computer programs to help you quickly find the spine range that is best suited to individual applications.(AA and TAP are both excellent programs, and the Easton charts are very close across the board) Due to this, they are good reference points for most setups. The guys that normally go away from these charts or programs are those looking for a lighter weight arrow to compete in 3D, or those who are simply rebellious to begin with! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> It's all handled for you, let them do the work, IMHO.
All arrows paradox (bend) when they leave the bow, and as stated above in my first post, will bend differently due to differentials in their configurations and/or power source. To gain the best groupings and accuracy, this paradox must be negated as quickly as possible. Those who tune to a bullet hole through paper at 6 or 9' produce a "knuckleball effect" on the arrow and it will take longer for it to paradox correctly, thus IMHO is not the best choice for supreme accuracy at all distances. What top shooters and techs have found over the years is that an 11:00 tail-high left tear approx 1/4"-1/2" (right handed shooter with release) at 6-9' will produce a faster and more repeatable paradox on the arrow coming out of the bow, thus the arrow is more accurate. My findings have coincided with this theory, and I've been tuning to this tear with all of my setups for years, as it gives the arrow "purpose".
Most top archers go directly to group tuning and Supertuning after choosing a correctly-spined arrow and "roughing it in", and through this process have come to the tear mentioned above after correctly tuning for best groups at all yardages and Supertuning. Most tune out to at least 40 yds, I personally go to 60, even on my hunting setups. Small adjustments are all that is needed usually, either on the nocking point or rest, or in some instances timing of the cams. (supertuning) It is admittedly tougher to get consistent groupings at longer distances unless you use a machine, but by doing it yourself, you implement the individual "forgiveness factor" and know what you are capable of. (This is big also when it comes to getting your individual tune) I start at 20, tune for groups, then check my Supertuning.(twin cam only, sorry, they are more infinitely tunable) Then 40yd groups, then 60yd groups. Slight adjustments in tiller can also help you hold better. Sometimes all it takes is a 1/4 turn to bring everything in.
This process cannot be rushed, and is up to each individual to determine how accurate they want to be and how tight they wish to get their groups. I personally have both target bows and hunting bows, and I recommend tuning to each specific setup, not trying to run everything together when it comes to field tips/broadheads. Like the bare shaft and fletched shaft differential, shooting fixed blade broadheads and field points are two different animals also, and due to different lengths of ferrule/drag on blades, etc, have different aerodynamics and will fly differently. (and should!) If you tune both together to get a "happy medium", then that is what you get, and you cannot get the utmost out of either setup without directly tuning to that individual configuration. All depends on what you want out of it, and how accurate you feel you should be for either the tournaments you participate in, or for the game you seek. Personally, it's a no-brainer for me, and I work very hard to make sure my setups are as precise as I can get them. It gives me ultimate confidence in my equipment knowing I've done all I can do, and gives me one less thing to worry about when the 10 pt is standing out in front of my stand at 30 yds, or I'm taking aim at a 11 ring on a McKensie Turkey at 48.
As mentioned by Jerry above, he states that he now has no way to gain a spine check if he eliminates bare shafting-- he shouldn't need to check however if he stays within the limits of the charts/programs and reads them correctly, and the groups at distance will readily tell the tale irregardless. Spine can usually be readily controlled by a crank or two on the limbs, also. I find in some instances I may need to crank a pound or two one way or the other for perfect flight, which is really not a biggie.(I tune my bow to the arrows, not the arrows to the bow!) And, once you get used to your bow/bows/setups over time, you can readily determine which shaft/point combination will fly well out of that bow at your preferred drawlength and poundage. Most bows have a decent "comfort range" within which one can choose a number of different shaft/point combinations that will readily tune, but they should all be tuned individually IMO. As mentioned, seeing as the bare shafts do not have the same flight characteristics as the fletched shafts to begin with, one should not try to get them to fly the same, because they are thus taking away from the correct and proper tune of the fletched shaft that they will be using for the actual application.
Whew! Did that make any sense to anyone? I hope so! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Happy New Year!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12
12-31-2002, 07:23 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: Tuning process
A couple questions here does nocking point and cener shot change when shooting broadheads compared to feild points or is it that they tune to the same setting but hit in diferant spots . I've noticed this myself shooting 4 spots 2 with feild points 2 with broadheads the feild points would be dead center and the broadheads would be high and right but in the same hole every time then when you try to get the two groups to match you run into problems , eradic flight .
We all have different oppinions , if we did'nt the world would be a BORING place
We all have different oppinions , if we did'nt the world would be a BORING place
12-31-2002, 09:43 AM
#15
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Tuning process
OK, I get the drift. Apples to apples. As much as I'd like to put up an argument for my B/S I recognize some good techie's with more expertise then myself. I'm going to follow your suggestions and tune without it. I will how ever make comparisions to my old way cause I'm such a hard head. Being my hunting is just about over I'll be tuning for target and 3-D. I'll worry about BH's come Sept. I'm only shooting one bow(Merlin Max)the last couple years(unless pinwheel has a good price on a used Lite Storm Duel cam) I've been shooting the same equip. for target,3-D and hunting. I'll be setting up and droping my poundage and shooting a lighter arrow w/a lighter tip and 1.5 feathers. Thanks guys I appreciate all your imput. TO BE CONTINUED. JERRY
12-31-2002, 11:21 AM
#17
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Tuning process
ijimmy--
Nocking point and centershot are critical of spine, FOC, and any variations within configurations, so yes, I would say they would in fact tune slightly different and have slight nocking point and centershot differentials. I always tune each setup individually and have for years now, so I cannot say how much the differential is. How much depends upon how different each configuration is. However, some may simply have a different impact point as you stated, again, different configurations tune differently with different peoples' styles of shooting, along with any differentials in weight, drag, etc, which changes spine. One person can induce more torque than another with varying grips and form, that is why you sometimes see one person take a bow and shoot a perfect hole, and another take that same bow and throw a 2" tear. This does get confusing, but I think everyone is getting onto the same page here.
Jerry-
You no doubt have a good system for you in which you feel comfortable. If this gives you the results you are looking for, by all means continue onward!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I do feel as tho you will gain better groupings, and especially so at distance if you utilize the "apples to apples" (as you call it) method as opposed to the "comparason method", but that decision is up to you, no one is twisting your arm! (at least not too bad. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Nocking point and centershot are critical of spine, FOC, and any variations within configurations, so yes, I would say they would in fact tune slightly different and have slight nocking point and centershot differentials. I always tune each setup individually and have for years now, so I cannot say how much the differential is. How much depends upon how different each configuration is. However, some may simply have a different impact point as you stated, again, different configurations tune differently with different peoples' styles of shooting, along with any differentials in weight, drag, etc, which changes spine. One person can induce more torque than another with varying grips and form, that is why you sometimes see one person take a bow and shoot a perfect hole, and another take that same bow and throw a 2" tear. This does get confusing, but I think everyone is getting onto the same page here.
Jerry-
You no doubt have a good system for you in which you feel comfortable. If this gives you the results you are looking for, by all means continue onward!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I do feel as tho you will gain better groupings, and especially so at distance if you utilize the "apples to apples" (as you call it) method as opposed to the "comparason method", but that decision is up to you, no one is twisting your arm! (at least not too bad. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
12-31-2002, 11:38 AM
#18
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Tuning process
LOL,Hey 8PT This is long but over. I opened up a can of worms and I'll see it through. I respect the people who posted on this thread and I'll follow there suggestion. BBBUUUTTT!!! I'll do my comparisons and match my results. I was taught B/S tuning from a guy who is an engineer and worked for Easton and set-up the arrow chart. He also was involved with the ACC's. This guy at 76 yrs.old still shoots and teachs and I love to sit with him and chat. He swears by the B/S. So there is different schools and theories so I guess it's what works for you. I can't argue my case without doing the work. I hope this thread does get interesting and pull more interest from other expertise who visit this site. I wish I had the experience to debate the B/S side but I don't so I'll wait for more results. Thanks.JERRY
12-31-2002, 05:21 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Tuning process
J, Thanks. I am happy with my results but I'm always looking to improve. If I can learn something to improve my shooting I'm all ears. I've pick=up alot from some of the people here and if I'm smart I'll continue to do so. I don't know any other archery site with as much info for the taking. JERRY