Who said that physics wasn't fun?
04-05-2007, 05:54 AM
#71
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 868
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
There have been some good points made on both the light and heavy arrow camps.
That being said, I don't subscribe to Arthur's ban on 400 gr or less arrows. That just seems to be putting the responsibility in the wrong place. It is the hunter who needs to decide which arrow weight works best for their setup.
Arthur, while I respect your opinion and your many....many years of hunting experience, in this case I would have to put you squarely in the fundamentalist camp with respect to arrow weight. Arrow weight is not a black or white issue. You are stating that a 400gr arrow will always have more momentum than a properly spined 350gr arrow when shot out of the same bow, and I agree 100% with that. The part if the logic that I feel is flawed is the fact that this requirement is laid down straight across the board without respect for draw weight, length or bow performance.
A 15 year old girl shooting a 30# bow at a 26" draw length will need all the help she can get with respect to penetration. I agree that the heavy arrows will help in that respect, however my hunting rig at 72# and 29" draw, generating 68 ft-lbs of KE will have more momentum with even a 320gr Speed Pro Max than hers would with even the heaviest arrow. That being said, where is the line? If you feel strongly about the issue (and I know you do), then argue that archers must meet particular momentum numbers. How you get there should be irrlevant (arrow weight, and speed).
That being said, I don't subscribe to Arthur's ban on 400 gr or less arrows. That just seems to be putting the responsibility in the wrong place. It is the hunter who needs to decide which arrow weight works best for their setup.
Arthur, while I respect your opinion and your many....many years of hunting experience, in this case I would have to put you squarely in the fundamentalist camp with respect to arrow weight. Arrow weight is not a black or white issue. You are stating that a 400gr arrow will always have more momentum than a properly spined 350gr arrow when shot out of the same bow, and I agree 100% with that. The part if the logic that I feel is flawed is the fact that this requirement is laid down straight across the board without respect for draw weight, length or bow performance.
A 15 year old girl shooting a 30# bow at a 26" draw length will need all the help she can get with respect to penetration. I agree that the heavy arrows will help in that respect, however my hunting rig at 72# and 29" draw, generating 68 ft-lbs of KE will have more momentum with even a 320gr Speed Pro Max than hers would with even the heaviest arrow. That being said, where is the line? If you feel strongly about the issue (and I know you do), then argue that archers must meet particular momentum numbers. How you get there should be irrlevant (arrow weight, and speed).
04-05-2007, 06:00 AM
#72
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
Arthur, in my opinon you're fighting an uphill battle here.
As for the crossbow fight, I'm switching sides. I figure I might as well be on the winning side in ONE of these fights during my lifetime, and since they're doing their darnedest to turn compounds into vertical, hand-held crossbows anyway...
I am surprized to hear that about Idaho though, bow hunter44. They've long been one of the few states with sensible restrictions.
04-05-2007, 07:00 AM
#73
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 384
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
Arthur, I was a little surprised by the change in the regulation about arrow weight myself. On the other hand, it appears (from a comment about a previouscomment about scoped muzzleloaders)you will bepleased to note that Idaho changed the muzzleloader regulations such that in-line muzzleloaders are out. Pivoting hammers only!
04-05-2007, 07:09 AM
#74
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
That being said, I don't subscribe to Arthur's ban on 400 gr or less arrows. That just seems to be putting the responsibility in the wrong place. It is the hunter who needs to decide which arrow weight works best for their setup.
I'd be willing to bet that not 1 in 10 bowhunters would know that a 600 grain arrow has a much greater penetration potential than a 300 grain arrow. Many would think the faster arrow would penetrate further.
In fact, the average bowhunter doesn't spine tune their arrows, they don't purposely shoot high FOC arrows with their fixed blade broadheads. Almost none tune the dynamic spine of the arrows to the setup they're shooting. I've watched many dozens purchase arrows at bow shops and I never hear anyone ask anything other than "how fast will these shoot?".
Leave up to the hunter? Kind of like letting them decide when deer season opens and closes.
04-05-2007, 07:58 AM
#76
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 868
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
You are heading down a slippery slope if your thinking is in that direction.
Under the set of circumstances the game comission must regulate the hunters arrow weight, how about draw weight? How many guys do you see doing the "sky draw" because they can't pull the bow straight back due to shooting too heavy of a poundage? Do we now require minimum AND MAXIMUM draw weight checks? How about the gun hunter that just takes is gun to the field thinking that "it was sighted in at the end of last season, it must still be on, does this require a yearly certification sticker on your gun that it has been sighted in properly? Possibly we should require the recurve and longbow shooters to prove they can hit where they aim before allowing them to the field with their bows.
I am not trying to get into a pi$$ing contest, but adding more equipment mandates leads to nothing more than more equipment mandates. The recurve guy that can't hit the broad side of a barn is still going to gut shoot every deer he sees regardless if he was shooting a soda straw or a telephone pole.
I understand what you are trying to accomplish with the heavier arrow weight, but that will come with education, not mandating more regulations.
Under the set of circumstances the game comission must regulate the hunters arrow weight, how about draw weight? How many guys do you see doing the "sky draw" because they can't pull the bow straight back due to shooting too heavy of a poundage? Do we now require minimum AND MAXIMUM draw weight checks? How about the gun hunter that just takes is gun to the field thinking that "it was sighted in at the end of last season, it must still be on, does this require a yearly certification sticker on your gun that it has been sighted in properly? Possibly we should require the recurve and longbow shooters to prove they can hit where they aim before allowing them to the field with their bows.
I am not trying to get into a pi$$ing contest, but adding more equipment mandates leads to nothing more than more equipment mandates. The recurve guy that can't hit the broad side of a barn is still going to gut shoot every deer he sees regardless if he was shooting a soda straw or a telephone pole.
I understand what you are trying to accomplish with the heavier arrow weight, but that will come with education, not mandating more regulations.
04-05-2007, 08:13 AM
#77
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
I understand what you are trying to accomplish with the heavier arrow weight, but that will come with education, not mandating more regulations.
All I hear is speed, speed and more speed. It's difficult at best to get even seasoned bowhunters to listen to the benefits of heavy arrows, much less getting them to try them.
I wouldn't worry too much about any regulations being affected in favor of heavier arrows. It appears that the speed merchants are more effective at lobbying the state game departments (ie Idaho). For me, getting regulations to force heavier arrow usage, is just wishful thinking.
04-05-2007, 08:50 AM
#78
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
The recurve guy that can't hit the broad side of a barn is still going to gut shoot every deer he sees regardless if he was shooting a soda straw or a telephone pole.
I've not seen the numbers of 'em like someone who works in the retail end of the archery industry does, but there are some darn scary people out there. A wildlife management area near here has a draw hunt every year. They require a shooting proficiency test for hunters to qualify to hunt. For many years, our club conducted a test for those who hoped to get drawn. I was the guy who ran it the last 12 years we did the test.
It was no biggie, basically going through a 14 target 3D course and just showingthe ability to hit the 8 ring on a McKenzie deer target every time at no more than 30 yards. Just for your own edification, I never once had a traditional shooter fail the test. A great many compound shooters did fail though.
One guy in particular has always stuck out in my mind. He walks up to the registration table and signs up. He's got a mid-80's vintage PSE. Looked like it'd been hanging in the barn since the mid-80's too. Covered with cobwebs and it had several dirt dauber wasp nests on it. I pointed over to the practice range and suggested he take a few warmup shots. "Nope," he says. "I'm good." And away he goes onto the course, wiping cobwebs off with his hands as he goes. He didn't pass. Didn't even come close. Got real pissed at me too when I wouldn't sign off on his scorecard.
Now how are you going to educate someone like that?
04-05-2007, 09:07 AM
#79
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
Posts: 2,188
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
State game departments regulate practically all aspects of weapon use. Why do they do this? Because there are thousands of people out there who don't have a clue that cetain configurations of weapons are not totally reliable for taking game.
I'd be willing to bet that not 1 in 10 bowhunters would know that a 600 grain arrow has a much greater penetration potential than a 300 grain arrow. Many would think the faster arrow would penetrate further.
In fact, the average bowhunter doesn't spine tune their arrows, they don't purposely shoot high FOC arrows with their fixed blade broadheads. Almost none tune the dynamic spine of the arrows to the setup they're shooting. I've watched many dozens purchase arrows at bow shops and I never hear anyone ask anything other than "how fast will these shoot?".
Leave up to the hunter? Kind of like letting them decide when deer season opens and closes.
That being said, I don't subscribe to Arthur's ban on 400 gr or less arrows. That just seems to be putting the responsibility in the wrong place. It is the hunter who needs to decide which arrow weight works best for their setup.
I'd be willing to bet that not 1 in 10 bowhunters would know that a 600 grain arrow has a much greater penetration potential than a 300 grain arrow. Many would think the faster arrow would penetrate further.
In fact, the average bowhunter doesn't spine tune their arrows, they don't purposely shoot high FOC arrows with their fixed blade broadheads. Almost none tune the dynamic spine of the arrows to the setup they're shooting. I've watched many dozens purchase arrows at bow shops and I never hear anyone ask anything other than "how fast will these shoot?".
Leave up to the hunter? Kind of like letting them decide when deer season opens and closes.
Also, comparing a 600 gr arrow to a 300 gr arrow is a rediculous comparison. And when you make as statement like the last one I start to question of you a really are even a hunter at all.
I ate an apple the other day. For some reason it tasted nothing like an orange.
04-05-2007, 09:13 AM
#80
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
Posts: 2,188
RE: Who said that physics wasn't fun?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Why are you picking on recurve guys? [>:]The guy that can't hit the broad side of a barn is still going to gut shoot every deer he sees, regardless of whether he's shooting a recurve, longbow, compound or a scoped 30-06.
I've not seen the numbers of 'em like someone who works in the retail end of the archery industry does, but there are some darn scary people out there. A wildlife management area near here has a draw hunt every year. They require a shooting proficiency test for hunters to qualify to hunt. For many years, our club conducted a test for those who hoped to get drawn. I was the guy who ran it the last 12 years we did the test.
It was no biggie, basically going through a 14 target 3D course and just showingthe ability to hit the 8 ring on a McKenzie deer target every time at no more than 30 yards. Just for your own edification, I never once had a traditional shooter fail the test. A great many compound shooters did fail though.
One guy in particular has always stuck out in my mind. He walks up to the registration table and signs up. He's got a mid-80's vintage PSE. Looked like it'd been hanging in the barn since the mid-80's too. Covered with cobwebs and it had several dirt dauber wasp nests on it. I pointed over to the practice range and suggested he take a few warmup shots. "Nope," he says. "I'm good." And away he goes onto the course, wiping cobwebs off with his hands as he goes. He didn't pass. Didn't even come close. Got real pissed at me too when I wouldn't sign off on his scorecard.
Now how are you going to educate someone like that?
The recurve guy that can't hit the broad side of a barn is still going to gut shoot every deer he sees regardless if he was shooting a soda straw or a telephone pole.
I've not seen the numbers of 'em like someone who works in the retail end of the archery industry does, but there are some darn scary people out there. A wildlife management area near here has a draw hunt every year. They require a shooting proficiency test for hunters to qualify to hunt. For many years, our club conducted a test for those who hoped to get drawn. I was the guy who ran it the last 12 years we did the test.
It was no biggie, basically going through a 14 target 3D course and just showingthe ability to hit the 8 ring on a McKenzie deer target every time at no more than 30 yards. Just for your own edification, I never once had a traditional shooter fail the test. A great many compound shooters did fail though.
One guy in particular has always stuck out in my mind. He walks up to the registration table and signs up. He's got a mid-80's vintage PSE. Looked like it'd been hanging in the barn since the mid-80's too. Covered with cobwebs and it had several dirt dauber wasp nests on it. I pointed over to the practice range and suggested he take a few warmup shots. "Nope," he says. "I'm good." And away he goes onto the course, wiping cobwebs off with his hands as he goes. He didn't pass. Didn't even come close. Got real pissed at me too when I wouldn't sign off on his scorecard.
Now how are you going to educate someone like that?
You've just stated the biggest problem in all of hunting. People just do not practice enough and then compain that the arrow that hit the deer in the shoulder didn't pass the whole way through. I actually stopped archery hunting for 2 yrs because in my mind I did not practice enough to deserve to be out in the woods. The sad part is some people would probably call me rediculous for doing so. However,I see far to many people that are happy to hit the edge of a pie plate at 20 yds and then say their ready to shoot at a deer. To many people think a bow is like a gun. Just pick it up the first day and you're ready to go.