Straightarrow

ORIGINAL: fastpassthrough I'm not aware of any study or experiment that shows a difference in penetration on an animal that is alive vs one that has been dead for a short while. Do you have evidence or is this just an assumption?

Straightarrow

I'm saying that there is significant evidence that it takes approximately 650 grains to break heavy bone.

And I'll guarantee it isn't.


I don't know why it sounds that way. I didn't say that, didn't suggest that or even mention the word minimum.


See, you think if a person uses a bazooka and doesn't hit what he's aiming at, that he doesn't have a better chance. I on the other hand, know that that person has a better chance of success if he misses his target while using a bazooka.

davepjr71

And it seems the proponents of the heavier arrows are doing all the whining and complaining here. Most of the guys that says it will not help have stated their hand on experience to why their set-up works. Yet the other side whines and complains that our tests do not matter for some reason.

In addition, I'vestated whyyour theory that the heavier arrow will cut down on losses won't work. A larger caliber bullet doesn't help the average guy kill more deer. It also leads to wounded game. A poor shot is a poor shot period. Ashby's charts on how many more wounded animals you get from a lighter arrow are based on shooting heavy boned animals. He presents no valid census from hunters and the sample is too small.


I've already stated my ideas. The shooter has to pass a test. And not just shooting at a pie plate. Maybe have to pass a technohunt where the animal is moving around like they do in real life.

Ashby himself states that a lightweight extreme FOC arrow can be just as effective as the heavier arrow even for sizable game with light bows in his Summary. Now take that same FOC arrow and put it thru a 60-70 lb bow and run the numbers.

Listen, I could care less if you use a 350 gr or a 700 gr arrow. However, when people try to impart their thoughts on others based on 1 test thenI have a problem. Even Ashby himself says that more tests need to be done on the type of arrows that some of us use. Yet, that is ignored and it's straight to heavier is better.

The only way to cut it is to make the fat butts that do not want to practice pass a test. Even with that you are missing the fact that even if that fat butt hits a deer they probably will not have the tracking capabilities to find said deer. It's not like the heavier arrow is going to nock the deer over right where it stands or throw blood all over the woods for the person to follow. That's the same mind set as the .300 win mag user.

Straightarrow

Hardly ignored! Even so, the jist of this thread has been the advantages of using momentum to predict penetration vs KE. Once again, if all other things are equal......ad nauseum.... Read Ashby's reports and you'll see that he's spends a lot of time testing this other stuff.

davepjr71

You crack me up.

You have no proof that the heavier arrow is going to do more damage but from one guy's experiment and swallow it whole like it's from God himself. Dead is dead, period. bottom line. End of story.

You keep touting that 650 gr is the minimum to break heavy bone is more deadly. your first comment clearly states that a 650 gr arrow is needed. Therefore, it's easy to deduct that you feel that is the minimum that anyone should use on deer. It's really an easy deduction to make. But then you back peddle and say you don't think that way. No where in Ashby's report does it say 400 gr. he clearly feels it is 650 gr. and since he obviously the only person in the world who is right and as a result makes you right then 650 gr should be the minimum.

Shooting over a deer is shooting over a deer. Whether you use a bazooka, arrow or missile. And if they do hit it with a bazooka there will be nothing left. You honestly do not get a joke do you?

Arthur P

What? You think we're so stupid as to go and do experiments that Ashby has already done, and done a helluva lot better than any of us could?? What kind of idiots do you take us for, anyway? Hell yes we use Ashby's studies as a resource. At least we've GOT scientific data to use as a resource to back up our contention.

Straightarrow

He doesn't use light weight high FOC arrows. He says "relatively light". That means 600 grains vs 950! By the way, I'm still waiting for your lightweight high FOC arrow specs.



One Test!!??? You've got to be kidding. Ashby has done dozens of tests involving hundreds of shots on animals, and you think your 2 arrow test into foam has any relevancy in comparison?

You don't read carefully. Ashby is going to test lower draw weights with those lower weight high FOC arrows. He's also going to test lower draw weights with heavy weights to prove his theory, that heavy weight arrows are even more important than high draw weight. He has already tested many light weight, normal FOC arrows and has consistantly found them to have the worst penetration - look at his graphs - plain as day.

davepjr71

READ ASHBY'S REPORTS!!!!
READ ASHBY'S REPORTS!!!

Why don't you get out and do some testing yourself instead of sitting in the lab relying strictly on someone else's experiments. We list our own tests and you say "Read Ashby's reports." You sound like a broken record.

He also tested heavy and extreme FOC arrows and found they may out penetrate a heavier arrow. But let's ignore that. Even though he clearly states it should be considered in future tests. Or him not testing thinner shafted arrows.

Straightarrow

What kind of dance is that you're doing?

davepjr71

I listed 2 tests just for this post. And all of your info comes from 1 guy's testing. Maybe I should have rephrased that for you to clearly understand. I've also used 23 yrs of archery. I personally apologize that I did not measure how far thru a deer my arrow went. Oh wait, I can't because the arrow went entirely thru the animal. Maybe I should have measured how far into the ground my arrow went after passing completely through the deer?


I read very carefully, I'm just stating that if they are effective in a light draw weight bow that they would be even more effective in a heavier draw weight bow. If you can use snippets to prove your point then so can I.