bow_hunter44

Not only that, but arrows that derive their momentum from velocity (those 70 lb compounds shooting light arrows that barely penetrate whitetails on TV shows) loose their momentum at a much more rapid rate that arrows that derive their momentum from mass. Thus the statement from Dr. Ashby:

"
ALL MOMENTUM IS NOT THE SAME

Given two arrows, identical in shaft and broadhead materials and profile, and having EQUAL momentum, but possessing UNEQUAL mass, the arrow deriving the greater portion of its momentum from its mass will penetrate better. The Laws of Physics requires this to be true, andALL of my field test data validates this to be the case."

This is all fascinating material. The science isso fundamentally sound as to make his conclusionsirrefutable!

Straightarrow

I've been reading his stuff for a few years now. I've even re-read them a few times. With only one reading you'll often skim over some areas, not getting the full meaning and sometimes you just plain forget. The real gems of the last few reports have to do with the advantage of extreme FOC and how arrow weight appears to be a larger factor in penetration than draw weight.

He needs to write a book and get this information into the hands of everyday bowhunters - not just the enthusiast who searches the web to learn more. I imagine he will write a book when he's done, but it looks like he has several more years he wants to study this. In the meantime, we need to try to get as many as possible to read this and help them understand it.

Paul L Mohr

Um, this is not really true. It CAN happen this way if you are using a high powered rifle. However hunting deer with a rifle, muzzle loader or shotgun does not insure that the deer will drop in it's tracks when you shoot it. As a matter of fact it has never happened to me.

Deer die the same way irregardless of what you shoot them with. They still die from lack of oxygen to the brain, normally due to blood loss or damage to the lungs. A bullet just does the damage in a different way than a arrow does. Because the hydrodynamic shock a bullet creates a larger wound channel. And in most cases deer that drop on the spot when you shoot them with a rifle are not dead yet. They are stunned and don't move while dying. Down and dead are not the same thing.

The exception to this would be one that you shoot in the head causing massive brain damage. It doesn't matter what weapon you use, bullet placement is still critical. I always go for the vitals no matter what weapon I use.

I shot a deer a few years ago with some brenneke gold magnums which are full bore 12 ga slugs that weigh 600 grns and have over 3,000 ft/lbs of energy. I shot it at 20 yards in the vitals and it still ran 90 yards. That is farther than most bow kills run.

And there are plenty of people that kill deer with .22 rimfires every year, most of them are poachers. Shoot them in the head or lungs at a close range and it will kill them.

Here is some reading on this subject while we are in the reading long studies mode.

Terminal Ballistics

Paul

davepjr71

Sorry, I was out golfing today and just got back. So, I'm reading and again I see the same stuff over and over and over. A heavier arrow does not kill quicker than a lighter one. Period. Hit in the vitals with either one it is dead.

Also, I bullet can kill instantly. The bullet disrupts the electrical sysstem to the heart and shut the animal off like a switch.

And of course people kill deer all the time with .22 while poaching.How many of the deer shot by poachers are never found because the deer runs away? I've had deer drop faster with my arrows than with a .35 or .308. So, I guess my arrows kill pretty efficiently in my eyes.


As for judging distance I'm talking about the same guys that do not want to practice. Not the guys that know distance from shooting. Range finders for deer to me are cheating when it comes to archery. You are not going to be in a position every time to use one and if you do not develope the skills to judge distance on your own you are screwed.


You know what. You guys are right. Nobody kills deer with my equipment. And only your arrows go thru a deers bones. My arrow has no chance eve nthough it goes thru just about everything that is harder than a live bone full of marrow. Steel doesn'rt count, particle board doesn't count, bullet resistant plexy glass doesn't count. Heck, even deer that us guys that use lighter stuff doesn't count.

BobCo19-65

Trust me that's easier said then done.

Although it makes a lot of sense to me and a lot of others, trust me, it's not irrefutable to everyone.

davepjr71

Exactly,

I understand what Ashby is saying. Does that mean I follow it. No it doesn't. My own experience is more impotant than a test done by someone else.

Bob, have you thought about the hand guard anymore?

TFOX

I believe the reason you see so many not penetrate on tv is because of piss poor broadhead choices.Plain and simple.I watched a double bull video the other day that a guy made a perfect heart shot on the deer,he was using a lighter arrow but he was also using a Rocket miniblaster.75 gr and 1 3/4" diameter cut(expandable).The broadhead also didn't have a pathfinder point.The arrow went through both sides but didn't even get close to the fletching.No way in hell should that happen from an arrow of ANY WEIGHT.If the arrow is tuned,A heart shot should go completely through.The broadhead isn't designed for penetration,it is designed for massive damage.



I see the same thing alot by others using Spitfires.They are a great quality head but penetration from average setups is not their strong suit.They should be saved for those guys that can shoot 70 - 80 ft/lb's ke(for reference guys )



I love expandables and they can be used quite effectively by even low energy setups,you just have to use common sense when choosing them for your setup.I shoot 380 gr arrows with Rocket Steelheads and have had some pretty amazing penetration,even on high angle shots.

Arthur P

Dave, try this scenario on for size. You wait and wait and wait and finally get that perfect broadside shot you must havewithlight arrows. Now,you draw and shoot but the animal turns at the exact instant you release. That perfect broadside shot turnsintobutt shot. The arrow hits in the hip and makes heavy contact - not a direct hit, just heavy contact - with the pelvic bone. Which is more likely to penetrate on through the paunch and into the chest cavity. A 350 gn arrow or a 450 gn arrow? Or a 700 gn arrow for that matter?

A friend of mine - not a traditional shooter, by the way -had this exact thing happened to him, only he was hunting black bear.Fortunately, he was using 2219's, probably in the 600 gn range. The arrow took out the top edge of the pelvic bone, but the impact broke the arrowright in front of the fletching. The rest of the arrow andbroadhead carried on through the paunch, through the diaphragm and split the heart. The bear dropped in 10 yards. With the fletched end of the arrow still sticking out his rump.

I know anothera guy, shooting a high speed setup, who shot at a deer season before last. Made a perfect heart shot on it. Only he was extremely lucky because the deer spun as he shot and that arrow which was aimed at theLEFT side actually hit the deer on theRIGHT side.

I've whiffed my share of deer,most of which managed to be quite a distance from where they were standing when I released.

So this is not some wildlyunlikely product of an overactive imagination. It can happen and does happen. Those critters do notalways find it necessary to cooperate and stand there like nice little McKenzie targets and let arrows hit them. There are many ways the animal can take your perfect shot and really screw things up for you.

How do you answer that?

passthru79

Arthur, I had that exact scenario happen. It was a 250 pound field dressed 9 pointer I shot back in 2002. The shot was about 25 yards give or take. He wasnt broadside when I shot, more of a quartering away and turned right as I released. My arrow hit about 2inches left of where the tail is conected to the body. My arrow weight was 380grains, I was shooting a NAP Spitfire with a 1 1/2 inch cutting diameter. The arrow impacted heavy leg bone and I think pelvic bone, but burried to the nock. After recovering the deer a meer 30 yards later I found that the broadhead had cut the femoral artery and had penetrated over two feet and the broadhead stopped smack in the middle of the chest cavity taking out liver and lung. Granted I wasnt shooting the almighty 400+ grain arrow but I think my setup did alright for itself.

passthru79

Arthur, havent had a chance to experiment with different weight arrows yet but I have shot the same arrow through two different bows 360 grain arrow at 310 fps hit dead with in 2 inches of the bullseye out to 37 yards, same arrow at 290fps could only do it to about 27 yards. Granted they were two diffent bows but I would think going to a heavier enough arrow to loose 20fps the trajectory would suffer even more.