davepjr71

I didn't discount anyone as a fraud.

But it sure seems that as soon as someone introduces variables or disagrees w Dr Ashbey they are roasted as idots and liars. And it seems like the ones doing that are the ones resorting to sarcastic retorts instead of an intelligent response. Therefore, I'm just sinking to their level.

Ashbey himself admits that he treats the arrow as traveling in a straight line. To me that is the flaw to matter what. Just like trying to use Netwon's Law that an object moving in a straight line stays in a straight mine unless an outside force acts upon it. An arrow is not traveling in a straight line. It's mass is traveling at an angular velocity and thus has X & Y components. As bow has so brilliantly stated it travels in an arc. Therefore, all equations should be done in a real world way. My college physics professor would preach about doing things in a vaccum. But my college physics lab professor performed most experiments in real world tests. Lighter arrows have smaller diameters and different characteristics. This should all be taken in to account. Yes, if you have all things equal but mass then the heavier arrow will penetrate better. However, in real world all things are not equal.

BobCo19-65

Don't know how you could get any closer to real world testing then what Ashby has done and continues to do.

davepjr71

I've stated in in all of my posts. Shoot standards arrow sizes with modern compounds. While there may be a difference between a 800 gr arrow and a 400 gr arrow. I believe there is very little between a 390 and a 520. And basically zero between 390 and 420. At some point the flatter trajectory of the lighter faster arrow cancels out the minor weight difference. The argument that was being made was a 400 gr min. Not an 800 gr minimum.

I've shown the few tests that I've done with my equipment and targets that the 390 out performs the 520. Arthur keeps stating Ashby (as well as others on here) but have notshown any numbers of their own shooting arrows they actually use. Also, my tests don't count because I didn't shoot at a burlap bag. Or, the lighter arrow is thinner. Or Jupiter is in line with Saturn and thereby pulls the lighter arrow toward the targets. I want to see test results with arrows in the standard hunting range (350 to 600 say). Period. End of discussion. I'm out.

passthru79

Ive said it once and Ill say it again, you dont need a 500 grain arrow to kill something. Nor do you need 500 grains to get more than enough penetration. Everyone keeps preaching about how the heavier arrow is the only way to go, its dumb. Yeah out of the same bow a heavier arrow may penetrate better than a lighter one, I emphasize "MAY". Try comparing your actual set up with a heavy arrow to someone elses who shoots a lighter one. I will garentee I get as much or more penetration with my 365 grain arrow as just about anyone shooting a 500 grain arrow. Its not just about the weight as Ive stated before. There are way too many factors envolving penetration to even try and list. Arrow weight and speed are just two of many.

davepjr71

Get with the program passthru. Our tests aren't valid unless they followtheofficialrules (which seem to change like the wind)and you need to have Dr. in front of your name. Same bow with 2 diff weights the lighter one won by avg of 2" at 65 lbs.

passthru79

Hey I know my 55 gallon barrel test wasnt valid. The reason why it wasnt valid was cause it prooved a light arrow can penetrate, and penetrate extremely well. Unfortunately I never went to college, joined the marine corps so Im just a dumb jar head who knows absolutely nothing about bows, arrows or archery for that matter.

BobCo19-65

Sure KE, Momentum, penetration among other thingswould increase using a 70 pound compoundcompared to a70 pound recurve (everything else being equal). ButAshby's tests and conceptsare still validfor both. The numbers would be different because of the draw force curves, but the results and analysis would still be the same.

I agree. And I don't understand your point. Would you want the minimum arrow weight that Arthur put out at 390 instead of 400? That's just a bit silly to even argue. To me anyway.

Cancel out what and why?Keep in mind that itwould depend on the yardage difference. A lighter arrow will dispell momentum quicker then a heavier arrow.

Just wondering if you have read all of Ashby's reports and updates. If not here is a link to everything if interested:

here

davepjr71

1. How can you say the results would be the same? Even with the same arrows if shot out of compound the results would not be the same. You have a different piece of equipmentthat you are using with a higher velocity and more KE.

2. I've noticed a pattern here with all of you nay sayers. You conveniently ignore everything in a response and choose 1 part. I'm saying that even if you set the weight min at 520 gr it's still silly. Out of my bow the 390 penetrates better. You would have to set the minimum at some rediculous number that probably 99% of the compound shooters do not use now. Even Arthur admitted that his 450 does better than a 500 gr. Therefore,I deem your response just silly and any minimum just as silly. Should we use 600 grs? Or 700 gr?


3.At standard yardages that 99% of people shoot animals. i.e. under 30 yds you get more than enough penetration for just about any game with a well placed shot. I'd bet that out to 50 yds that still holds true. Not just flinging an arrow at an animal and saying. "Well, i just flung a 700 gr arrow at it so therefore the momentum will help me kill the animal and blast thru the shoulder blade and ribs on my poorly chosen shot." Were as if you follow the, take a good shot at a good angle, you will not have to think about momentum.

I read some of his report and stopped.But tobe farI'll read the whole thing and give my honest opnion on it. One intersting factoid is that according to his report my arrow 301 gr at 312 fps or so has as approximately as much momentum as a 720 gr arrow at 180. This falls back on my comment on where do you draw the line for a mimimum arrow weight. you would also need to consider velocity, arrow diameter, and so on.

I guessI should just follow the beating a dead horse philosophy now. It's obvious that we agree to disagree.

BobCo19-65

That could very well be. I'm with ya man. Ashby's reports are based on huge animals. But Ashby's studies do have something to do with the original topic post and pretty much support bow-hunter44's POV.

Maybe you missed this:

Numbers will be different, won't argue that.


Don't recall anyone saying a fatter arrow shaft will out-penetrate a smaller arrow shaft all else being equal. I know I didn't anyway.

To tell you the truth, minimum arrow weight is not something that I really don't have an opinion on. My point in the previous post waspertained to the 10 grain difference comparision.


My energy is starting to run low on this topic. Best of luck.

davepjr71

Understandable,

I'll give Ashby credit. He openly admits that the smaller arrow will penetrate better. But then you have to take into accound resistancefor the faster arrow. It seems like there are people speaking the same thing but in different languages.

No, you did not say the fatter shaft will. However, people were stating that you have to use the same shaft for my test and why would i do a test with equipment I do not use?

I know you were refering to the 400 gr shaft. I was just wondering why no response to the 520?

Thank you for your input and have a great week and enjoy shooting.