Front OF Center
03-09-2007, 07:06 AM
#21
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location:
Posts: 2,981
RE: Front OF Center
for 3d, folks will shoot as low at 5-7% w/ field pts or nibs. for broadheads the 10-15% foc is better. i try and get around 13-14% on my broadheads, and don't worry if its up around 15-16%. for 3d i like to be in the 7-9% range.
03-09-2007, 07:10 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Front OF Center
A higher FOC simply makes your fletchings work harder is all. This could effect trajectory in a minor way because it may increase wind resistance over a longer length.
A lower FOC doesn't control the front of the arrow as well, so low FOC arrows tend to not do real well with large fixed blade heads. You can use a lower FOC, but it will require a better tune than an arrow with a higher FOC and better fletchings.
FOC is about the last thing I worry about in an arrow, but I don't concern myself with higher FOC arrows, like 15% and above.
The one thing to keep in mind, the more FOC you have, the weaker your spine will be because you have more weight in the front of the arrow. So high FOC arrow tend to be heavy if spined correctly.
With todays current technology in broad head design, fletchings, rests, bow design and the awareness of tuning I would say 9-12% would be a goal to shoot for. I think this would give most current archers with average equipment and skill a decent arrow to work with.
I wouldn't go much below 8% unless you have REALLY good arrows, good form a fair understanding of how to tune a bow. Adequate fletching would be a must as well. An example would be a newer archer with little tuning experience using a cheap carbon arrow, light cheap satalite large cut broad heads, and 3 or 4 inch straight fletched vanes. You would probably do ok with field tips, but when it came time to tune for broad heads it would probably give you fits.
I have seen people walk out of cabela's with this type of a set up. They shoot great in the back yard with practice tips, then wonder why they miss or wound game when they go hunt.
My opinions anyway.
Paul
A lower FOC doesn't control the front of the arrow as well, so low FOC arrows tend to not do real well with large fixed blade heads. You can use a lower FOC, but it will require a better tune than an arrow with a higher FOC and better fletchings.
FOC is about the last thing I worry about in an arrow, but I don't concern myself with higher FOC arrows, like 15% and above.
The one thing to keep in mind, the more FOC you have, the weaker your spine will be because you have more weight in the front of the arrow. So high FOC arrow tend to be heavy if spined correctly.
With todays current technology in broad head design, fletchings, rests, bow design and the awareness of tuning I would say 9-12% would be a goal to shoot for. I think this would give most current archers with average equipment and skill a decent arrow to work with.
I wouldn't go much below 8% unless you have REALLY good arrows, good form a fair understanding of how to tune a bow. Adequate fletching would be a must as well. An example would be a newer archer with little tuning experience using a cheap carbon arrow, light cheap satalite large cut broad heads, and 3 or 4 inch straight fletched vanes. You would probably do ok with field tips, but when it came time to tune for broad heads it would probably give you fits.
I have seen people walk out of cabela's with this type of a set up. They shoot great in the back yard with practice tips, then wonder why they miss or wound game when they go hunt.
My opinions anyway.
Paul
03-09-2007, 07:44 AM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: Front OF Center
The higher your front of center is the more arch your arrow will have, the lower the FOC the flatter shooting the arrow will be, anywhere around 10% should be plenty for stability and good trajectery
03-09-2007, 08:46 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Front OF Center
I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.
Aiming for some mid-range figure should not be considered ideal. If you're hunting real large game, or not likely to take a shot over 30 yards, then there is no real disadvantage to using very high FOC arrows. Extreme FOC arrows give substantial advantages in stability under less than ideal conditions and penetration on bone hits. It also makes tuning broadhead flight a lot easier. There is less tendancy for the front end to plane.
The average hunter does not super-tune their setups. They would be far better off using FOCs in the 17-20% range, rather than something midrange, like 10-12%. The advantages really show up with those that are less experienced. They simply need proper guidence in selecting arrows and tips. Any halfway decent shop should be able to do this. Trouble is, many shops slap 100 gr heads on every arrow, with no regard to spine and FOC. In my opinion, this is anything but professional service.
By the way, it's Dr Ashby's reports that you want to read.
Aiming for some mid-range figure should not be considered ideal. If you're hunting real large game, or not likely to take a shot over 30 yards, then there is no real disadvantage to using very high FOC arrows. Extreme FOC arrows give substantial advantages in stability under less than ideal conditions and penetration on bone hits. It also makes tuning broadhead flight a lot easier. There is less tendancy for the front end to plane.
The average hunter does not super-tune their setups. They would be far better off using FOCs in the 17-20% range, rather than something midrange, like 10-12%. The advantages really show up with those that are less experienced. They simply need proper guidence in selecting arrows and tips. Any halfway decent shop should be able to do this. Trouble is, many shops slap 100 gr heads on every arrow, with no regard to spine and FOC. In my opinion, this is anything but professional service.
By the way, it's Dr Ashby's reports that you want to read.
03-09-2007, 08:52 AM
#25
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: Front OF Center
Here is a link to Ashby's reports if interested:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24
03-09-2007, 06:33 PM
#27
Spike
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 51
RE: Front OF Center
[quot
I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.
e]ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
contacting bone? are you talking balance pt or penetration...heavy arrow
vs light arrow? you should have said" light wt hunting arrows not low foc"
because you can make a heavy shaft with low foc that will resist the wind and break bone.
IMO 9 to 13% foc will cover just about every configuration of vanes, wraps,and pts from 75 to 125grs and offer you a good flying arrow.[:-]
I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.
e]ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
contacting bone? are you talking balance pt or penetration...heavy arrow
vs light arrow? you should have said" light wt hunting arrows not low foc"
because you can make a heavy shaft with low foc that will resist the wind and break bone.
IMO 9 to 13% foc will cover just about every configuration of vanes, wraps,and pts from 75 to 125grs and offer you a good flying arrow.[:-]
03-09-2007, 09:22 PM
#28
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Front OF Center
ORIGINAL: K-ZONE
[quot
I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.
e]ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
contacting bone? are you talking balance pt or penetration...heavy arrow
vs light arrow? you should have said" light wt hunting arrows not low foc"
because you can make a heavy shaft with low foc that will resist the wind and break bone.
IMO 9 to 13% foc will cover just about every configuration of vanes, wraps,and pts from 75 to 125grs and offer you a good flying arrow.[:-]
[quot
I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.
e]ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
contacting bone? are you talking balance pt or penetration...heavy arrow
vs light arrow? you should have said" light wt hunting arrows not low foc"
because you can make a heavy shaft with low foc that will resist the wind and break bone.
IMO 9 to 13% foc will cover just about every configuration of vanes, wraps,and pts from 75 to 125grs and offer you a good flying arrow.[:-]
I did a little test of this scenario one time.I added weight tubes to an arrow and had the foc at 5% but the arrow couldn't be weighed on my scale because it was so heavy,it also spined out to 100#.The arrow penetrated like crap but whenI took the weight out and got the foc up to around 12 or 15%(can't recall exacty right now)it penetrated great.The test medium was foam and particle board with several shots taken from a tuned bow.The arrows were Nitro Stinger that are tapered and the spine range was from 60#-100#.
My setup is a low poundage one where it matters.Point is that foc matters.Those that have high energy setups can fudge on foc because the ke is so high.
I am not a heavy arrow kind of guy but I like to have good foc(not as much as Straightarrow) but I like it.I also like MASS.I prefer carbon or carbon /aluminum composite and feathers and penetrtation will be fine.
Straightarrow is telling the old school way of doing things,when ke wasn't very high at all.Recurves and long bows needed as much momentum as they could get.These HEAVY slow arrows needed alot of foc and alot of drag to remain stable in flight and produce great penetration.It isn't completely necessary with todays equipment but what he states is factuall.
03-10-2007, 05:39 AM
#29
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Front OF Center
Tfox, nice experiment.
The problem is, what I'm talking about is considered old-school. It should be considered today's school. It's just as practical today, with modern equipment, as any other day in the past. The prinicples have remained true. The benefits are still there.
Dr Ashby has proven the importance of high weight on penetration and the effect extreme FOC has on increasing penetration. He's proven it on flesh and bone, not foam or steel. These principles hold true on any animal whether it's a moose or a whitetail. I can't tell you how many guys I've heard lament having hit a shoulder and not penetrated enough for a kill, using their modern equipment and light, low-FOC arrows. I watch modern hunting shows and see center-of-chest hits penetrating about 6-10inches - all the time. So-called professional hunters that don't know the first thing about proper arrow configuration, is what I think is going on.
The only disadvantage of heavy arrows, is when a person doesn't know the distance. That is easily overcome with today's rangefinders and proper pre-hunt planning.
I disagree completely. In my opinion, almost everyone would be better off shooting heavier points and higher FOCs. On the extreme end, I can just imagine going after an Alaskan brown bear with a 125 gr tip on a 9% FOC arrow. Heck, the arrow would probably bounce off. If I did that that shot, I'd make sure my guide is real good with a rifle on an angry bear. I wouldn't dare even imagine going after something really big, like a cape buffalo. That arrow likely wouldn't even get halfway through one rib.
I know - you're talking about whitetails, not cape buffalo. Well, it doesn't matter. A whitetail's shoulder is just as tough to get through as a cape buffalo's rib. When I tout the benefits of high FOC on heavier arrows, I'm not referring to perfect conditons and perfect hits (how often does that happen?). I'm talking about the typical hunt, with wind gusts, unseen twigs, odd shot angles, slightly off-target hits and a hunter that is not as calm as he should be. The kind of forgiveness and stability you get from this type of arrow is exactly what most hunters should have.
I blame this light-arrow, need-for-speed mentality on the popularity of 3d shooting. Field tips being shot at unknown distances. People setup their bows and their arrow to perform well at this game. Then, they go out shoot something similar at live animals. Well, hunting is a different game. We shoot broadheads and it should never be at an unknown distance. The optimum arrow to perform well in most hunting senerios, is absolutely nothing like what is best for 3d.
The problem is, what I'm talking about is considered old-school. It should be considered today's school. It's just as practical today, with modern equipment, as any other day in the past. The prinicples have remained true. The benefits are still there.
Dr Ashby has proven the importance of high weight on penetration and the effect extreme FOC has on increasing penetration. He's proven it on flesh and bone, not foam or steel. These principles hold true on any animal whether it's a moose or a whitetail. I can't tell you how many guys I've heard lament having hit a shoulder and not penetrated enough for a kill, using their modern equipment and light, low-FOC arrows. I watch modern hunting shows and see center-of-chest hits penetrating about 6-10inches - all the time. So-called professional hunters that don't know the first thing about proper arrow configuration, is what I think is going on.
The only disadvantage of heavy arrows, is when a person doesn't know the distance. That is easily overcome with today's rangefinders and proper pre-hunt planning.
IMO 9 to 13% foc will cover just about every configuration of vanes, wraps,and pts from 75 to 125grs and offer you a good flying arrow.
I know - you're talking about whitetails, not cape buffalo. Well, it doesn't matter. A whitetail's shoulder is just as tough to get through as a cape buffalo's rib. When I tout the benefits of high FOC on heavier arrows, I'm not referring to perfect conditons and perfect hits (how often does that happen?). I'm talking about the typical hunt, with wind gusts, unseen twigs, odd shot angles, slightly off-target hits and a hunter that is not as calm as he should be. The kind of forgiveness and stability you get from this type of arrow is exactly what most hunters should have.
I blame this light-arrow, need-for-speed mentality on the popularity of 3d shooting. Field tips being shot at unknown distances. People setup their bows and their arrow to perform well at this game. Then, they go out shoot something similar at live animals. Well, hunting is a different game. We shoot broadheads and it should never be at an unknown distance. The optimum arrow to perform well in most hunting senerios, is absolutely nothing like what is best for 3d.