dual or solo cams
11-23-2002, 11:26 AM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: dual or solo cams
As far as accuracy on creeping goes, this is a function of the draw curve. MOST single came have very small valleys, with a hard back wall. Why? because they can. Without synchronization issues, you can make a very sharp profile. with a 2 cam bow, a profile that sharp would need VERY good synching or you would feel the bow being out of synch.
SOME 2 cam bows DO have this kind of draw cycle...AND the unforgiving creep issue.
String stretch? Yes, it will affect the solo cam nock height...and 2 can synch. Get a winners choice string and you don't have to worry about it.
Yes, Mathews has timing holes to show perfect optimization....again, mostly for SPEED, not accuracy.
Most one cam bows, the cam possition will change when you change draw length.
BTW..the same thing applies to 2 cam bows (timing) no one does it because getting the draw length, synch, AND timing would be way too hard without custom building each and every bow to the shooter.
SOME 2 cam bows DO have this kind of draw cycle...AND the unforgiving creep issue.
String stretch? Yes, it will affect the solo cam nock height...and 2 can synch. Get a winners choice string and you don't have to worry about it.
Yes, Mathews has timing holes to show perfect optimization....again, mostly for SPEED, not accuracy.
Most one cam bows, the cam possition will change when you change draw length.
BTW..the same thing applies to 2 cam bows (timing) no one does it because getting the draw length, synch, AND timing would be way too hard without custom building each and every bow to the shooter.
11-23-2002, 11:28 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: dual or solo cams
As far as accuracy on creeping goes, this is a function of the draw curve. MOST single came have very small valleys, with a hard back wall. Why? because they can. Without synchronization issues, you can make a very sharp profile. with a 2 cam bow, a profile that sharp would need VERY good synching or you would feel the bow being out of synch.
SOME 2 cam bows DO have this kind of draw cycle...AND the unforgiving creep issue.
String stretch? Yes, it will affect the solo cam nock height...and 2 can synch. Get a winners choice string and you don't have to worry about it.
Yes, Mathews has timing holes to show perfect optimization....again, mostly for SPEED, not accuracy.
Most one cam bows, the cam possition will change when you change draw length.
BTW..the same thing applies to 2 cam bows (timing) no one does it because getting the draw length, synch, AND timing would be way too hard without custom building each and every bow to the shooter.
SOME 2 cam bows DO have this kind of draw cycle...AND the unforgiving creep issue.
String stretch? Yes, it will affect the solo cam nock height...and 2 can synch. Get a winners choice string and you don't have to worry about it.
Yes, Mathews has timing holes to show perfect optimization....again, mostly for SPEED, not accuracy.
Most one cam bows, the cam possition will change when you change draw length.
BTW..the same thing applies to 2 cam bows (timing) no one does it because getting the draw length, synch, AND timing would be way too hard without custom building each and every bow to the shooter.
11-23-2002, 02:07 PM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: dual or solo cams
double vs single
I'll re-post my original answer to this from another thread:
"1) Twin cams are faster than solos if of the same configuration. Therefore, manufacturers have made most conventional solos with a much harsher draw cycle which stores more energy in an effort to compete with the speed of the twins. This harsher draw cycle is much harder on the archers' shoulder and back muscles, especially when they "overbow" themselves with the "false sense of ease" of the 80% let-off at the end of the draw cycle. They also cannot be tuned to as fine a degree as twins simply because they have no opposing cam to "balance-out the system". Ever get those occasional "flyers" with a conventional solo? Most everyone that shoots a conventional solo has had them at one time or another. You simply cannot tune them out with a conventional solo, they come from creeping slightly forward (most archers will from time to time) which rotates the single cam, and throws your shot. With twins you can "supertune"(what I call the creep-tune method) both cams and eliminate those high or low shots and have the same impact points regardless of creep or overdraw. In other words IMHO you have to work much harder to shoot a conventional solo with the same consistency as a finely-tuned twin, especially when being a beginning or average archer, regardless of what you "think" you feel due to the higher let-off. Try it with an open mind and see for yourselves.
2) Most conventional solos have 80% let-off to help "mask" the harsher draw cycle they exhibit as stated above. This IMO is also detrimental to an average shooters' accuracy, because the higher the let-off, the less tension that runs through the entire system, and this lesser tension allows the archer to draw the string out of it's natural path much easier, therefore causing more left/right shots. Pros are not as apt to be bothered by this or by #1, because they know what they can safely and comfortably pull, and have superb form and shooting skills. Yes, Pros are winning with solos, but they are being paid to and are going where the money is, otherwise few would be there IMO. They also do not have any of the "form flaws" that most archers do, and thus CAN win with them. I have shot solos for quite awhile myself, but can honestly say I have never shot the scores that I do with twins. Many Pros like Dave Cousins say the difference between solos and twins and accuracy is that with the conventional solo they can keep them holding a "sloppy 10, tight 9", but with twins they can keep them in the " tight 10, or X". With something like 16 World Records under Daves' belt, and the input from other top archers backing twins, I think they know what they're talking about. That same distance can be the difference between a solid double lung and a "no-man's land" shot while hunting, or the difference between a 10 and a 12 in 3D. Another interesting fact is that most of the Pros I know that shoot the solos are running 65% modules or cams in them. Ever pull a true 65% solocam? He-he, better you than me, been there and done that, no wonder I feel old!
3) The hard-wall of the solos is now being matched by built-in "wallbangers" (stops) on alot of the twins. They are rock solid also. Moot point here.
4) Conventional Solos need to be kept in time also, contrary to the "myth" that they are virtually maintenence free. Cam rotation and nocking point height are VERY critical with them, and they can go "out" quickly with their longer string due to increased chance of slippage or stretch. This is not as much of a factor today with the better string materials/better building techiniques available, but a shorter string/cable combination is always better than a longer one regardless to take away any factor at all.(some solos admittedly now have dual-track idlers and an adjustable cam also which helps this. In other words they have two cams! Any time a cable goes to a "stop" on a eccentric, that eccentric must be counted as a power source, so technically all of these designs are in fact twins! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>) This means the average Joe will be spending more time at the shop and on the range chasing sight marks on a conventional solo than a guy with a twin. I have not touched my twin in over 8 months since I switched over to new limbs for it, the cams are still perfectly on my timing marks after thousands of shots, and it hits the X every time. None of my previous conventional solos would touch that for that period of time without some diddling.
In fact, IMO the ONLY 2 things conventional solos now currently have over the twins is 1)- that out of the box, they will initially hold better. This is readily rectified in the twins during the tuning/setup process, and becomes a moot point if done correctly with proper stabilization and timing/tuning. Most new twins hold superbly anyway. And 2)-- They are quieter for the most part. Out of the box, this is a true assumption and I have no arguement. Interestingly enough, a quick and correct application of cat whiskers and limbsavers for hunting applications (who cares how loud your target bow is if it goes into the X?) will put most every quality bow made today (twin or solo) in the same class also, and is much cheaper IMHO than a doctors' bill for strained or torn muscles due to a harsher draw-force curve and the "masking" of an 80% let-off.
And again---"If they keep on upgrading the solocam, they'll re-invent the twin cam". I believe this statement to be more correct than not.
I don't believe this should turn into a Ford/Chevy debate over solos/twins, but I felt that I should clarify a few issues and offer my thoughts on why I feel twins will be a better choice overall for most archers. As stated, whatever you feel comfortable with and whatever you'd like to shoot is fine with me, there are many guys shooting conventional solos out there that love them. As long as we're all shooting, that is definately what matters most."
I think that sums it up from my standpoint. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
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I'll re-post my original answer to this from another thread:
"1) Twin cams are faster than solos if of the same configuration. Therefore, manufacturers have made most conventional solos with a much harsher draw cycle which stores more energy in an effort to compete with the speed of the twins. This harsher draw cycle is much harder on the archers' shoulder and back muscles, especially when they "overbow" themselves with the "false sense of ease" of the 80% let-off at the end of the draw cycle. They also cannot be tuned to as fine a degree as twins simply because they have no opposing cam to "balance-out the system". Ever get those occasional "flyers" with a conventional solo? Most everyone that shoots a conventional solo has had them at one time or another. You simply cannot tune them out with a conventional solo, they come from creeping slightly forward (most archers will from time to time) which rotates the single cam, and throws your shot. With twins you can "supertune"(what I call the creep-tune method) both cams and eliminate those high or low shots and have the same impact points regardless of creep or overdraw. In other words IMHO you have to work much harder to shoot a conventional solo with the same consistency as a finely-tuned twin, especially when being a beginning or average archer, regardless of what you "think" you feel due to the higher let-off. Try it with an open mind and see for yourselves.
2) Most conventional solos have 80% let-off to help "mask" the harsher draw cycle they exhibit as stated above. This IMO is also detrimental to an average shooters' accuracy, because the higher the let-off, the less tension that runs through the entire system, and this lesser tension allows the archer to draw the string out of it's natural path much easier, therefore causing more left/right shots. Pros are not as apt to be bothered by this or by #1, because they know what they can safely and comfortably pull, and have superb form and shooting skills. Yes, Pros are winning with solos, but they are being paid to and are going where the money is, otherwise few would be there IMO. They also do not have any of the "form flaws" that most archers do, and thus CAN win with them. I have shot solos for quite awhile myself, but can honestly say I have never shot the scores that I do with twins. Many Pros like Dave Cousins say the difference between solos and twins and accuracy is that with the conventional solo they can keep them holding a "sloppy 10, tight 9", but with twins they can keep them in the " tight 10, or X". With something like 16 World Records under Daves' belt, and the input from other top archers backing twins, I think they know what they're talking about. That same distance can be the difference between a solid double lung and a "no-man's land" shot while hunting, or the difference between a 10 and a 12 in 3D. Another interesting fact is that most of the Pros I know that shoot the solos are running 65% modules or cams in them. Ever pull a true 65% solocam? He-he, better you than me, been there and done that, no wonder I feel old!
3) The hard-wall of the solos is now being matched by built-in "wallbangers" (stops) on alot of the twins. They are rock solid also. Moot point here.
4) Conventional Solos need to be kept in time also, contrary to the "myth" that they are virtually maintenence free. Cam rotation and nocking point height are VERY critical with them, and they can go "out" quickly with their longer string due to increased chance of slippage or stretch. This is not as much of a factor today with the better string materials/better building techiniques available, but a shorter string/cable combination is always better than a longer one regardless to take away any factor at all.(some solos admittedly now have dual-track idlers and an adjustable cam also which helps this. In other words they have two cams! Any time a cable goes to a "stop" on a eccentric, that eccentric must be counted as a power source, so technically all of these designs are in fact twins! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>) This means the average Joe will be spending more time at the shop and on the range chasing sight marks on a conventional solo than a guy with a twin. I have not touched my twin in over 8 months since I switched over to new limbs for it, the cams are still perfectly on my timing marks after thousands of shots, and it hits the X every time. None of my previous conventional solos would touch that for that period of time without some diddling.
In fact, IMO the ONLY 2 things conventional solos now currently have over the twins is 1)- that out of the box, they will initially hold better. This is readily rectified in the twins during the tuning/setup process, and becomes a moot point if done correctly with proper stabilization and timing/tuning. Most new twins hold superbly anyway. And 2)-- They are quieter for the most part. Out of the box, this is a true assumption and I have no arguement. Interestingly enough, a quick and correct application of cat whiskers and limbsavers for hunting applications (who cares how loud your target bow is if it goes into the X?) will put most every quality bow made today (twin or solo) in the same class also, and is much cheaper IMHO than a doctors' bill for strained or torn muscles due to a harsher draw-force curve and the "masking" of an 80% let-off.
And again---"If they keep on upgrading the solocam, they'll re-invent the twin cam". I believe this statement to be more correct than not.
I don't believe this should turn into a Ford/Chevy debate over solos/twins, but I felt that I should clarify a few issues and offer my thoughts on why I feel twins will be a better choice overall for most archers. As stated, whatever you feel comfortable with and whatever you'd like to shoot is fine with me, there are many guys shooting conventional solos out there that love them. As long as we're all shooting, that is definately what matters most."
I think that sums it up from my standpoint. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
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11-23-2002, 06:26 PM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oh USA
Posts: 1,584
RE: dual or solo cams
I have a single and a dual cam bow. The dual cam has a smoother draw and good, solid wall. The single cam has a wider valley and very solid wall. I've had to fool with the string on my d c once, and I shoot it alot. I've had to fool with the string on my s c once, and I shoot it alot. The d c is a little louder, the s c alot slower. Both are 60# bows. Both are very accurate at hunting ranges. Past 35 yds the d c groups better. I like the dual cam better, overall. The two bows I'm comparing, BowTech Patriot and P38 DC. I sold the Pat and ordered a 2003 Pat DC. After shooting the P38, I have come to like the dual cam design better. Both designs do the same thing, fling arrows where I aim them (usually). One thing that seems more inherent to the s c is the "where did that come from flyer". It's probably a release flaw, but I don't get them with the d c bow. If I could have only one bow, it would have two cams.
Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
11-24-2002, 11:42 AM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: dual or solo cams
Pinwheel makes some good points. But MOST of the problems found in shooting the solo cam can be fixed when shooting with back tension.
1) You CAN tune them out of a solo cam (Ask the last 2 winners at Vegas!) Use back tension, and you WILL NOT creep...at all! The harsh draw curve was designed for speed...NOT to compete with 2 cam bows, but to BEAT them. Not there are more and more 2 cam bows with a similar draw curve (and silimalr results if you creep)...yes, the 2 cams are faster...but you MUST get them in perfect synch. A solo cam bow, you need only keep your nock square (or where ever you set it) timing is not an accuracy thing...just a speed thing.
2) The 80% let off is there because archers WANT it.. not to mask anything. It's easier to get 80% on a solo, because timing is eliminated. Anytime your 2 cam bow is out of synch, you loose let-off. This IS detrimental to MOST archers accuracy, because they don't shoot back tension. Want some tension in your rig at full draw with 80% let off? Use back tension. The solid back wall will generate PLENTY of tension for the system (WITHOUT changing speed). Why can the pros shoot there well....most ALL of them shoot back tension.
3) agreed
4)Solos do NOT NEED to be kept in time....all you need to do is make sure your nock is correct (Winners Choice string and harness...2 YEARS without an adjustment!) 1 long string, 1 short string. 2 cam 3 short strings. ALL can stretch....2 cams kinda balance each other out...but not PERFECTLY...close enough for most though. Once I got my wall bangers on my 2 cam, I was ALWAYS trying to get it perfect.....never seemed to stay PERFECT for long...but that is one case...2 cam bows CAN be held in synch...probably best with a winners choice string. (IMHO whether or not an idler has a stop or not, shouldn't change it's definition of an idler)
All this stuff with a sloppy 10 or 9 vs 10 and X....don't hold water (look at 3-d tournies, and Vegas) If the PROS can do it...the BOWS can do it...any other missing is the archers fault. Use back tension and you'll have the SAME level of accuracy as a 2 cam bow.
If a solo is quieter to start, adding limb savers, string silencers would make them EVEN quieter...Apples to apples, 2 cams are louder.
Last, this whole 2 cams can be balanced, 1 cams can't...1 cams don't NEED to be...they are balanced by design. You can't improve them, becase there is only one cam to adjust. It is ALWAYS in synch...no need to adjust for poor shooting form (creep).
THAT is the 2 cams advantage....people who do NOT shoot with back tension might have better luck with a 2 cam bow. Those that DO shoot B/T will find the solo JUST as accurate as a 2 cam....and you won't see those fliers unless YOU do something wrong.
Pinwheel, this is NOT an attack....just my counter to your statement. you sum it up best when you say "As long as we're all shooting, that is definately what matters most."
"
I am NOT a die hard solo guy...I just don't like seeing people bash them just cause they got a new 2 cam bow and need to feel good about it (NOT saying this is you....you know the type I mean)
I say shoot what works best for YOU. For me, it's a solo with decent ATA and brace. I shoot MY solo better than I ever shot my 2 cam bows (and they had even MORE ATA and brace)
1) You CAN tune them out of a solo cam (Ask the last 2 winners at Vegas!) Use back tension, and you WILL NOT creep...at all! The harsh draw curve was designed for speed...NOT to compete with 2 cam bows, but to BEAT them. Not there are more and more 2 cam bows with a similar draw curve (and silimalr results if you creep)...yes, the 2 cams are faster...but you MUST get them in perfect synch. A solo cam bow, you need only keep your nock square (or where ever you set it) timing is not an accuracy thing...just a speed thing.
2) The 80% let off is there because archers WANT it.. not to mask anything. It's easier to get 80% on a solo, because timing is eliminated. Anytime your 2 cam bow is out of synch, you loose let-off. This IS detrimental to MOST archers accuracy, because they don't shoot back tension. Want some tension in your rig at full draw with 80% let off? Use back tension. The solid back wall will generate PLENTY of tension for the system (WITHOUT changing speed). Why can the pros shoot there well....most ALL of them shoot back tension.
3) agreed
4)Solos do NOT NEED to be kept in time....all you need to do is make sure your nock is correct (Winners Choice string and harness...2 YEARS without an adjustment!) 1 long string, 1 short string. 2 cam 3 short strings. ALL can stretch....2 cams kinda balance each other out...but not PERFECTLY...close enough for most though. Once I got my wall bangers on my 2 cam, I was ALWAYS trying to get it perfect.....never seemed to stay PERFECT for long...but that is one case...2 cam bows CAN be held in synch...probably best with a winners choice string. (IMHO whether or not an idler has a stop or not, shouldn't change it's definition of an idler)
All this stuff with a sloppy 10 or 9 vs 10 and X....don't hold water (look at 3-d tournies, and Vegas) If the PROS can do it...the BOWS can do it...any other missing is the archers fault. Use back tension and you'll have the SAME level of accuracy as a 2 cam bow.
If a solo is quieter to start, adding limb savers, string silencers would make them EVEN quieter...Apples to apples, 2 cams are louder.
Last, this whole 2 cams can be balanced, 1 cams can't...1 cams don't NEED to be...they are balanced by design. You can't improve them, becase there is only one cam to adjust. It is ALWAYS in synch...no need to adjust for poor shooting form (creep).
THAT is the 2 cams advantage....people who do NOT shoot with back tension might have better luck with a 2 cam bow. Those that DO shoot B/T will find the solo JUST as accurate as a 2 cam....and you won't see those fliers unless YOU do something wrong.
Pinwheel, this is NOT an attack....just my counter to your statement. you sum it up best when you say "As long as we're all shooting, that is definately what matters most."
"
I am NOT a die hard solo guy...I just don't like seeing people bash them just cause they got a new 2 cam bow and need to feel good about it (NOT saying this is you....you know the type I mean)
I say shoot what works best for YOU. For me, it's a solo with decent ATA and brace. I shoot MY solo better than I ever shot my 2 cam bows (and they had even MORE ATA and brace)
11-24-2002, 01:11 PM
#26
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: dual or solo cams
1) Back tension is not a solution to the Conventional solocams' problems. If it was, then manufacturers would not be putting more emphasis on other solutions and new or updated cams designs. Ever shoot uphill and downhill shots with back tension? You cannot tell me you never creep there! If so then you must be a Pro of the highest caliber, because everyone I know does at one time or another, and if done with a conventional solo a flyer will occur.(zip, maybe nickle!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Been there, done that!) Not trying to bash your post either, but it simply isn't as easy as that.
2) 80 % let-off was originally started by Mountaineer Archery during the days when we all pulled 85+ lbs and shot 200g arrows to get the speed we all "thought" we needed for 3D. Mountaineer faded into nonexistance after only a few short years, and afterwards very few manufacturers offered the 80% until Mathews and other manufacturers came out with it again to "mask" the ultra-harsh pull of the newer, faster, perimeter solocams. I remember the first time I pulled a 65% perimeter cam at the same weight I normally shot my 65% twins, and wow, it was not pleasant in the least. Yes, the 80% was designed to mask the harsh draw, and yes, I agree, people wanted it! Little did everyone realize that there were gremlins associated with doing this, and actually more than most of us care to want to know about. Denial is always there from loyal fans, but the technical aspects and physics properties do not lie.
4) Solos DO need to be kept in time, moreso than most realize probably if you believe you can just set them to the timing marks and go. Those timing marks by most manufacturers are only there to make us all "feel better", two holes bored in the outer edge of the cam, that's it, a big "smoothing over". Think not? OK, let's go from a tech standpoint again-- Every bow configuration is different due to different ATA and geometry. String and cable lengths vary also, which actually helps to some extent, but doesn't clear up the entire issue. Most Conventional solo cams are not made with numerous different radius', and neither are the idlers! So what works "perfectly" on one bow will not necessarily work on another without a twist or two here or there, (maybe more than that also), and those timing marks are just for getting a "rough estimate" on where the cam should be. They still must be "tuned" for best performance and the least amount of shock. Just like a twin cam needs a 1/2 twist here and there. Twins are actually easier to tune because they have the opposing cam to balance-out the system, and once "set", due to the shorter cable lengths, they do not move. An even if they do, the nocking point movement is less critical than that on a solo if stretched the same amount when tuned correctly to have the same impact point regardless of creep or overdraw. C-solos cannot be tuned to this degree.
I'm not saying solos can NOT be used by top shooters to win because they have been and are, but I'll bet that most of them would be elsewhere if it weren't for the high-figures they are receiving from certain manufacturers. Also, top shooters are not average shooters, and is why I stated the points I did in my last post. They simply are not as consistent for the average archer, this is factual based on the technical attributes the twins have over the solos. At any rate, guy like Dave C have had every opportunity to shoot the solos for Hoyt,(and have) and he prefers the twins hands down. Hard to argue that with the #1 archer in the World! Most of team Martin are shooting twins also, and upcoming companies like Merlin and Bowtech are both leaning hard on the twin cams now. (To my knowledge all of us on Team Merlin shoot twin cams) With the introduction of the Cam and a half, Hoyt has already made a statement that they must look elsewhere in the solocam development field, just as Darton did some years ago instead of "following the pack". I have to say that the remaining companies like Mathews will IMHO be redesigning their cam system before too long, or they'll quickly drop from sight much like High Country has the past decade, after they too, were once on top of the heap! "Top" companies are cyclic within the industry, and it's going to just be a matter of time before someone else comes out with the next step in the evolution of archery and grabs the throne. Mathews shot themselves in the foot IMO by stating the "twin cams are history" jargon, and I agree with others in that they would look mighty foolish now if they headed towards a system that resembled a twin in any way. And as stated, technically if any system uses an eccentric that the cable goes to and hooks onto a stop, instead of simply running over it, then that eccentric must be counted as a power source, and will thus NOT be a true solocam. Something else to chew on....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I do believe the "hybrids" will take over for the solos in the coming years, and will be a much better choice to compete with the "pure" twins.(all hybrids are technically twins as stated above) I don't believe you will ever see the "pure" twins dissappear tho in our lifetime simply because they are so readily tunable, and many people love them. That is why you are now starting to see more and more companies back offering quite a few twins in their lineups again, when just a few short years ago it was very difficult to find one at all.
Conventional solos have definately created a following, and like I stated earlier, it's all in what you prefer to shoot. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/24/2002 14:21:22
2) 80 % let-off was originally started by Mountaineer Archery during the days when we all pulled 85+ lbs and shot 200g arrows to get the speed we all "thought" we needed for 3D. Mountaineer faded into nonexistance after only a few short years, and afterwards very few manufacturers offered the 80% until Mathews and other manufacturers came out with it again to "mask" the ultra-harsh pull of the newer, faster, perimeter solocams. I remember the first time I pulled a 65% perimeter cam at the same weight I normally shot my 65% twins, and wow, it was not pleasant in the least. Yes, the 80% was designed to mask the harsh draw, and yes, I agree, people wanted it! Little did everyone realize that there were gremlins associated with doing this, and actually more than most of us care to want to know about. Denial is always there from loyal fans, but the technical aspects and physics properties do not lie.
4) Solos DO need to be kept in time, moreso than most realize probably if you believe you can just set them to the timing marks and go. Those timing marks by most manufacturers are only there to make us all "feel better", two holes bored in the outer edge of the cam, that's it, a big "smoothing over". Think not? OK, let's go from a tech standpoint again-- Every bow configuration is different due to different ATA and geometry. String and cable lengths vary also, which actually helps to some extent, but doesn't clear up the entire issue. Most Conventional solo cams are not made with numerous different radius', and neither are the idlers! So what works "perfectly" on one bow will not necessarily work on another without a twist or two here or there, (maybe more than that also), and those timing marks are just for getting a "rough estimate" on where the cam should be. They still must be "tuned" for best performance and the least amount of shock. Just like a twin cam needs a 1/2 twist here and there. Twins are actually easier to tune because they have the opposing cam to balance-out the system, and once "set", due to the shorter cable lengths, they do not move. An even if they do, the nocking point movement is less critical than that on a solo if stretched the same amount when tuned correctly to have the same impact point regardless of creep or overdraw. C-solos cannot be tuned to this degree.
I'm not saying solos can NOT be used by top shooters to win because they have been and are, but I'll bet that most of them would be elsewhere if it weren't for the high-figures they are receiving from certain manufacturers. Also, top shooters are not average shooters, and is why I stated the points I did in my last post. They simply are not as consistent for the average archer, this is factual based on the technical attributes the twins have over the solos. At any rate, guy like Dave C have had every opportunity to shoot the solos for Hoyt,(and have) and he prefers the twins hands down. Hard to argue that with the #1 archer in the World! Most of team Martin are shooting twins also, and upcoming companies like Merlin and Bowtech are both leaning hard on the twin cams now. (To my knowledge all of us on Team Merlin shoot twin cams) With the introduction of the Cam and a half, Hoyt has already made a statement that they must look elsewhere in the solocam development field, just as Darton did some years ago instead of "following the pack". I have to say that the remaining companies like Mathews will IMHO be redesigning their cam system before too long, or they'll quickly drop from sight much like High Country has the past decade, after they too, were once on top of the heap! "Top" companies are cyclic within the industry, and it's going to just be a matter of time before someone else comes out with the next step in the evolution of archery and grabs the throne. Mathews shot themselves in the foot IMO by stating the "twin cams are history" jargon, and I agree with others in that they would look mighty foolish now if they headed towards a system that resembled a twin in any way. And as stated, technically if any system uses an eccentric that the cable goes to and hooks onto a stop, instead of simply running over it, then that eccentric must be counted as a power source, and will thus NOT be a true solocam. Something else to chew on....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I do believe the "hybrids" will take over for the solos in the coming years, and will be a much better choice to compete with the "pure" twins.(all hybrids are technically twins as stated above) I don't believe you will ever see the "pure" twins dissappear tho in our lifetime simply because they are so readily tunable, and many people love them. That is why you are now starting to see more and more companies back offering quite a few twins in their lineups again, when just a few short years ago it was very difficult to find one at all.
Conventional solos have definately created a following, and like I stated earlier, it's all in what you prefer to shoot. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/24/2002 14:21:22
11-24-2002, 01:13 PM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: dual or solo cams
How about if they got one of the newer 2 cams and it shot better than any one cam they ever shot ?
If information provided by the members of this board have helped you please let us know .
If information provided by the members of this board have helped you please let us know .
11-25-2002, 05:56 AM
#28
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: dual or solo cams
Traditional single cam designs (idler wheel and single cam) definitely need to be kept in their correctly timed position otherwise the bow gets significantly louder with more recoil and vibration. A tradtional single cam bow needs to be timed correctly in order for it to function most efficiently.
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