How exactly do you group tune?
11-05-2002, 11:31 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Goodyear AZ US
Posts: 215
How exactly do you group tune?
I've read about it, been told it's a good second step after paper tuning but I just dont know how exactly to group tune. What does this mean and how do I go about it? If I group tune with field tips, to I need to do it again with broadheads? I did a search but didnt come up with an answer.
I'm shooting a Merlin Lite Storm (71#), string loop, fall away rest, CX-300's 28.5 inches 100gn FOC 11-12%.
Thanks in advance.
Cargo
I'm shooting a Merlin Lite Storm (71#), string loop, fall away rest, CX-300's 28.5 inches 100gn FOC 11-12%.
Thanks in advance.
Cargo
11-06-2002, 06:15 AM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Rick-
Here's what you do--
Go out and put a + on a target butt with electrical tape or whatever. Step back to 20 yds, and shoot a group at the center of the +. Adjust your sight till you hit center. If your group is large, after making sight adjustments to hit as close as you can to the center of the +, make SMALL adjustments to your rest or nocking point and shoot another group. If needed, shoot another with more SMALL adjustments. Continue this until you are satified with your group size. Then check at 30, 40, whatever yardage you want, and adjust accordingly if your groups wander to right or left or open up more than you feel is "normal". Always take into consideration your individual skills and abilities. If you know you shot a poor group, do not count it. Do NOT rush this process, and if you get fatigued, quit and continue again later when you are refreshed.
To "supertune" (twin cam only) you simply go to the next step of the group tuning process. You shoot your initial group at 20 yds, then do it again, only this time creep forward slightly (about 1/8" or so) with the second group. If your impact point hits higher or lower than the original group at normal anchor, your bow needs a twist on the cables to "bring it in". If you hit high, twist the lower buss cable 1/2 turn. If it hits low, the upper cable. Continue this process until you have the same impact point heights regardless of creep or overdraw. You do not need to go to 40 yds on the supertuning process. You'll be surprised how well you will consistently shoot with a group tuned/supertuned bow. Solocams cannot be supertuned because they have no opposing cam with which to balance the system.
Hope this helps, I'm sure it will if you take your time with it. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Here's what you do--
Go out and put a + on a target butt with electrical tape or whatever. Step back to 20 yds, and shoot a group at the center of the +. Adjust your sight till you hit center. If your group is large, after making sight adjustments to hit as close as you can to the center of the +, make SMALL adjustments to your rest or nocking point and shoot another group. If needed, shoot another with more SMALL adjustments. Continue this until you are satified with your group size. Then check at 30, 40, whatever yardage you want, and adjust accordingly if your groups wander to right or left or open up more than you feel is "normal". Always take into consideration your individual skills and abilities. If you know you shot a poor group, do not count it. Do NOT rush this process, and if you get fatigued, quit and continue again later when you are refreshed.
To "supertune" (twin cam only) you simply go to the next step of the group tuning process. You shoot your initial group at 20 yds, then do it again, only this time creep forward slightly (about 1/8" or so) with the second group. If your impact point hits higher or lower than the original group at normal anchor, your bow needs a twist on the cables to "bring it in". If you hit high, twist the lower buss cable 1/2 turn. If it hits low, the upper cable. Continue this process until you have the same impact point heights regardless of creep or overdraw. You do not need to go to 40 yds on the supertuning process. You'll be surprised how well you will consistently shoot with a group tuned/supertuned bow. Solocams cannot be supertuned because they have no opposing cam with which to balance the system.
Hope this helps, I'm sure it will if you take your time with it. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
11-06-2002, 06:32 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Goodyear AZ US
Posts: 215
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Now, do you think this is possible with a dropaway rest?
The only reason I've started looking into group tuning is that my groups are bigger at 40-60yds than I would expect/tollerate. I'm shooting bulletholes now at 6' and I bare shaft tuned to 20yds IAW Easton's Tuning Guide.
I went to a dropaway more out of curiosity than anything so I'm not attached to it. From reading posts you've made before concerning rests you lean towards a "support" rest. If I had to go back to another rest it sounds like it needs to be micro-adjustable to make group tuning easier.
Thanks again. I wish I had the coin to take that other Lite Storm off your hands.
Cargo
The only reason I've started looking into group tuning is that my groups are bigger at 40-60yds than I would expect/tollerate. I'm shooting bulletholes now at 6' and I bare shaft tuned to 20yds IAW Easton's Tuning Guide.
I went to a dropaway more out of curiosity than anything so I'm not attached to it. From reading posts you've made before concerning rests you lean towards a "support" rest. If I had to go back to another rest it sounds like it needs to be micro-adjustable to make group tuning easier.
Thanks again. I wish I had the coin to take that other Lite Storm off your hands.
Cargo
11-06-2002, 06:42 AM
#4
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Cargo-
Harder to do, but it can be done. You still have your windage, height, and dwell, but you probably do not have micro-adjustability. Spring-tension support definately makles the job easier also IMO, as stated in other posts. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Harder to do, but it can be done. You still have your windage, height, and dwell, but you probably do not have micro-adjustability. Spring-tension support definately makles the job easier also IMO, as stated in other posts. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
11-06-2002, 07:15 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: south lake tahoe ca USA
Posts: 3
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Pinwheel 12 you are wrong about supertuning, it can be done with a single or dual cam bow, and the tuning process you mention is not even close, super tuning was created by George Champman of PSE, I attended Pse school with George in march of this year, and became a certified tech and shooter, and I know all about the supertuning method. Supertuning starts from the time you get the bow and start to set it up, then there are some fine tuning adj. you can make to dial in your center shot, and your nocking point, but it does not involve putting twists in your cable, or any of the steps you mention.
11-06-2002, 08:03 AM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton Square NJ USA
Posts: 557
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
I use a nap dropaway 2000, and I find it easier to make micro adjustments by loosening or tightening the limb bolts about 1/16 of a turn. It's very hard to get those little adjustments with a dropaway rest, at least vertical.
If you tighten the top bolt, it will raise your nock point a little, if you tighten the bottom bolt, it will lower your nock point a little. The reverse for looseening them. Just a little easier for me.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
If you tighten the top bolt, it will raise your nock point a little, if you tighten the bottom bolt, it will lower your nock point a little. The reverse for looseening them. Just a little easier for me.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
11-06-2002, 08:25 AM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
PSEJoe-
No, I'm sorry, you do NOT know about supertuning if you believe me to be wrong, or that George Chapman originated the process. He did not, and he never mentions it in his schools either. Dennis Sullivan is the originator of the method,(he calls it "creep tuning", I've called it "supertuning" for many years) and this was way back in the beginning of compound bow technology and tuning, before PSE was a gleam in Pete Shepley's eye or George was a master tech. This was recently discussed heavily over at Archerytalk.com Take a step over there, click on the search button at the top of the page, type in "creep tune method" and read the 80 post thread started by GRIV entitled "the creep tune procedure". You may learn something. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/06/2002 09:45:26
No, I'm sorry, you do NOT know about supertuning if you believe me to be wrong, or that George Chapman originated the process. He did not, and he never mentions it in his schools either. Dennis Sullivan is the originator of the method,(he calls it "creep tuning", I've called it "supertuning" for many years) and this was way back in the beginning of compound bow technology and tuning, before PSE was a gleam in Pete Shepley's eye or George was a master tech. This was recently discussed heavily over at Archerytalk.com Take a step over there, click on the search button at the top of the page, type in "creep tune method" and read the 80 post thread started by GRIV entitled "the creep tune procedure". You may learn something. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/06/2002 09:45:26
11-06-2002, 10:02 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: south lake tahoe ca USA
Posts: 3
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Super tuning is not the same as creep tuning, and I have the documentation from PSE school by George explaining supertuning step by step, creep tuning is a different method, and if you attended PSE school you would know George teaches supertuning in his school,he dosen't rely on paper tuning and he teaches bare shaft tuning is better for finger shooters.
George has been a master tech before compound bows where even introduced to the market. He is 66 yrs old so I doubt if you used the phrase before he was a gleam in PSE's eyes.
George has been a master tech before compound bows where even introduced to the market. He is 66 yrs old so I doubt if you used the phrase before he was a gleam in PSE's eyes.
11-06-2002, 10:35 AM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
CargoF16
Do not pay attention to anyone that is trying to take you where you should not go at this time. "Supertune," what a bunch of bunk! I call it "thorough tuning," and it (thorough tuning) has been around since someone realized that you should tune a bow and the gear.
Cargo, just sit back and relax. When the "rads" and "zoomies" get through dumping the hype on you, there will be shooters who will come and explain to you (just) the basic tuning techniques that are required for the field. It is not that complicated unless you allow it to be.
In the meantime, if the paper-tuning reveals that you have your arrows flying straight, just adjust your sight pin(s) until you are hitting the mark from the yardage each pin is set for.
Unless you shoot often, like all through the year, it is common your groups will begin to open as the distance increases. One cause is that a pin (head) size vs. the size of area you are shooting at. The more the pin covers the spot, the harder it becomes to center and hold the pin in the same spot each shot.
Unless your hunting area requires you to take a 40-60 yard shot, which is a long shot for most shooters, why do you want/need to shoot tight groups at that distance? Determine the max distance you are willing to take a shot; tune your bow and yourself to consistently hit the mark at that distance. Put the effort where it counts.
Do not get caught up in the propaganda that you bh's are suppose to hit the same spot your fp's do, without any need to adjust. It just ain't so.
Do not pay attention to anyone that is trying to take you where you should not go at this time. "Supertune," what a bunch of bunk! I call it "thorough tuning," and it (thorough tuning) has been around since someone realized that you should tune a bow and the gear.
Cargo, just sit back and relax. When the "rads" and "zoomies" get through dumping the hype on you, there will be shooters who will come and explain to you (just) the basic tuning techniques that are required for the field. It is not that complicated unless you allow it to be.
In the meantime, if the paper-tuning reveals that you have your arrows flying straight, just adjust your sight pin(s) until you are hitting the mark from the yardage each pin is set for.
Unless you shoot often, like all through the year, it is common your groups will begin to open as the distance increases. One cause is that a pin (head) size vs. the size of area you are shooting at. The more the pin covers the spot, the harder it becomes to center and hold the pin in the same spot each shot.
Unless your hunting area requires you to take a 40-60 yard shot, which is a long shot for most shooters, why do you want/need to shoot tight groups at that distance? Determine the max distance you are willing to take a shot; tune your bow and yourself to consistently hit the mark at that distance. Put the effort where it counts.
Do not get caught up in the propaganda that you bh's are suppose to hit the same spot your fp's do, without any need to adjust. It just ain't so.