How exactly do you group tune?
11-06-2002, 10:50 AM
#11
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unless your hunting area requires you to take a 40-60 yard shot, which is a long shot for most shooters, why do you want/need to shoot tight groups at that distance? Determine the max distance you are willing to take a shot; tune your bow and yourself to consistently hit the mark at that distance. Put the effort where it counts.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Huh? What kind of logic is this? Why limit yourself to practicing at just your max hunting distance?
If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake. Take up field spot shooting for a while- it'll open your eyes quite a bit. There's nothing like shooting a great group on the 80yd target!
As far as the tuning process you asked about- I do things very similar to PW12. But I seperate the X and Y axis into two different procedures. I'll concentrate on the Y (vertical) axis first with VERY small incremental adjustments in my centershot position. All I'm watching is my horizontal spread as I'm shooting at a vertical line with each adjustment- is the spread getting bigger or smaller? If it's getting smaller, I keep incrementing the centershot in that direction until the spread starts to get bigger again. I make notes as I go along, so I look back and see where I had the smallest horizontal spread. Then I know I've found the optimum centershot.
Then I move onto the X (horizontal) adjustments with nock point and repeat the above process until I've determined my optimum nock point position.
If I'm not satisfied with my results, you may have to consider a tweak in the arrow spine/bow combination. Maybe I'll give the limb bolts a crank up or down depending on how I think my arrow is behaving and repeat the entire procedure. Maybe I'll cut a 1/2" off my arrows that I intentionally left a tad long just for the "tinkering" purpose, and then repeat the entire procedure. Different tip weight, and repeat the entire process...
You can get as "anal" as you want with all the variables in the mix, and at some point you'll have to say "this is good enough for me". The most important thing is to have fun and enjoy what you're doing!
Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 12:15:59
Huh? What kind of logic is this? Why limit yourself to practicing at just your max hunting distance?
If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake. Take up field spot shooting for a while- it'll open your eyes quite a bit. There's nothing like shooting a great group on the 80yd target!
As far as the tuning process you asked about- I do things very similar to PW12. But I seperate the X and Y axis into two different procedures. I'll concentrate on the Y (vertical) axis first with VERY small incremental adjustments in my centershot position. All I'm watching is my horizontal spread as I'm shooting at a vertical line with each adjustment- is the spread getting bigger or smaller? If it's getting smaller, I keep incrementing the centershot in that direction until the spread starts to get bigger again. I make notes as I go along, so I look back and see where I had the smallest horizontal spread. Then I know I've found the optimum centershot.
Then I move onto the X (horizontal) adjustments with nock point and repeat the above process until I've determined my optimum nock point position.
If I'm not satisfied with my results, you may have to consider a tweak in the arrow spine/bow combination. Maybe I'll give the limb bolts a crank up or down depending on how I think my arrow is behaving and repeat the entire procedure. Maybe I'll cut a 1/2" off my arrows that I intentionally left a tad long just for the "tinkering" purpose, and then repeat the entire procedure. Different tip weight, and repeat the entire process...
You can get as "anal" as you want with all the variables in the mix, and at some point you'll have to say "this is good enough for me". The most important thing is to have fun and enjoy what you're doing!
Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 12:15:59
11-06-2002, 11:00 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Yapank NY USA
Posts: 3,457
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Rangeball <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I also wondered where they came up with the saying - "A lttle bit of knowledge can be very dangerous"
I also wondered where they came up with the saying - "A lttle bit of knowledge can be very dangerous"
11-06-2002, 11:15 AM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
It appears that Cargo may be novice to average shooter. Why take him down a road he should not (yet) travel?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Where and how did you reach that conclusion? Please explain to Cargo, and me, how all things remain and occur the same, other than pin height, from 0 to 80 yards.? I am anxiously awaiting.
There may be "...nothing like shooting a great group at 80-yards..." on a target, but it is a greater thrill to hit the zone on the deer at 0-30 yards with a bow/gear precisely tune to do so.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Where and how did you reach that conclusion? Please explain to Cargo, and me, how all things remain and occur the same, other than pin height, from 0 to 80 yards.? I am anxiously awaiting.
There may be "...nothing like shooting a great group at 80-yards..." on a target, but it is a greater thrill to hit the zone on the deer at 0-30 yards with a bow/gear precisely tune to do so.
11-06-2002, 11:31 AM
#14
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
What difference does it make if a person is an average shooter or not? Are you saying that unless you're experienced shooter you shouldn't be practicing long distances? Sure, if someone is just starting out, then it would be wise to just get comforatble and accurate at close distances. But once that neophyte shine wears off, why not broaden your horizons a bit?
Confidence is a major factor in archery. When practicing longer distances than your max hunting distance, and doing it WELL, your confidence soars in knowing that if you can shoot great groups at 60yds- a shot at 25yds is all that much easier. I think that is pretty much common sense.
I agree that it is a huge thrill to put an arrow dead center in the boiler room from 0-30yds. But practicing at ALL distances will help you do it more consistently and with more confidence. Plus, little tuning changes that you might not notice shooting at 30yds WILL show up shooting at 60yds. Wouldn't you want your bow as well tuned as possible? I know I do.
Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 12:33:25
Confidence is a major factor in archery. When practicing longer distances than your max hunting distance, and doing it WELL, your confidence soars in knowing that if you can shoot great groups at 60yds- a shot at 25yds is all that much easier. I think that is pretty much common sense.
I agree that it is a huge thrill to put an arrow dead center in the boiler room from 0-30yds. But practicing at ALL distances will help you do it more consistently and with more confidence. Plus, little tuning changes that you might not notice shooting at 30yds WILL show up shooting at 60yds. Wouldn't you want your bow as well tuned as possible? I know I do.
Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 12:33:25
11-06-2002, 12:05 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Pinwheel 12 you are wrong about supertuning, it can be done with a single or dual cam bow, and the tuning process you mention is not even close, super tuning was created by George Champman of PSE, I attended Pse school with George in march of this year, and became a certified tech and shooter, and I know all about the supertuning method. Supertuning starts from the time you get the bow and start to set it up, then there are some fine tuning adj. you can make to dial in your center shot, and your nocking point, but it does not involve putting twists in your cable, or any of the steps you mention.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
PSEJoe,
While I sometimes agree to disagree with PW12 on some "theoretical" points, I can assure you that he is not wrong. I have no credentials other than a long time in the sport and having learned and listened to some very knowlegeable individuals. You should look at your PSE tuning school experience like an individual graduating college and then coming out to the job and telling the guy that has been doing the job for 30 years how he should be doing it. There is no substitue for experience and PW12 has more than most of us self proclaimed techs all put together. PW12's credentials speak for themselves and I can assure you that they tower above yours. So keep in mind that although you have gone to school it does not mean that you now know everything. I am not telling you that you should always agree with anyone because I don't ALWAYS agree with anyone. I am just telling you that you are not talking to a bunch of fly by nighters and you are not going to come in here and start talking over anyone's head regardless of how much theoretical knowledge you think you have floating around up there.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
PSEJoe,
While I sometimes agree to disagree with PW12 on some "theoretical" points, I can assure you that he is not wrong. I have no credentials other than a long time in the sport and having learned and listened to some very knowlegeable individuals. You should look at your PSE tuning school experience like an individual graduating college and then coming out to the job and telling the guy that has been doing the job for 30 years how he should be doing it. There is no substitue for experience and PW12 has more than most of us self proclaimed techs all put together. PW12's credentials speak for themselves and I can assure you that they tower above yours. So keep in mind that although you have gone to school it does not mean that you now know everything. I am not telling you that you should always agree with anyone because I don't ALWAYS agree with anyone. I am just telling you that you are not talking to a bunch of fly by nighters and you are not going to come in here and start talking over anyone's head regardless of how much theoretical knowledge you think you have floating around up there.
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
11-06-2002, 12:09 PM
#16
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
PSEJoe-
You're talking semantics here, "Supertuning" is a phrase I have called the creep tune method for many years.(ask regular members of all of the messageboards how many times I've referred to it by that name) I know how old George is, and have spoken with him on occasion and have sat in on his seminars, as well as Bob Ragsdales' and Alexander Kirrilovs'. (among many others--Bernie Pellerite, Frank Pearson, Larry Wise, Chris Jones, etc) I have not heard of any other tuning method called "supertuning" in my years in this business with the exception of once I overhead a tech call laser tuning this. Everything else is simply "tuning". As I stated, semantics. The procedure was aptly described for all to know what I was talking about, so please stop trying to rattle my cage.
And if you and C903 go over and read a little more about it, you may even choose to use the "creep tune", "supertune", (whatever you want to call it) method. It DOES work, and certainly is by no means a waste of time. I look at it this way--- If one person uses it and gets a harvest instead of a lost animal that will eventually die, to me that in itself is worth all of this trouble of bantering back and forth with the non-believers. Our sport is not one that is "good enough" accuracy-wise IMO, the game we hunt deserve better than the "that's good" lazy hunters who pick their bows up two days before the season and blow the dust off and shoot groups the size of a basketball at 20 yds. (seen lots of 'em, and they shouldn't be in the woods IMHO) And, the anti-hunters need no further fuel than what they already have, IMO. "Lazy hunters" need to get un-lazy, more educated about the sport and equipment, and work harder to ensure they make quick and clean kills. Utilizing better technical tactics and tuning methods to score better in tournaments only flows over into that persons' hunting shots too. I make my living from this sport.(two archery businesses)I live and breathe it, and want it to get BETTER for my children and grandchildren to fully enjoy in the future. (Most people do, but don't think about this part of it.) "That's good" is simply not good enough. Sorry for the rant.
SA---
Thank-you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/06/2002 13:26:08
You're talking semantics here, "Supertuning" is a phrase I have called the creep tune method for many years.(ask regular members of all of the messageboards how many times I've referred to it by that name) I know how old George is, and have spoken with him on occasion and have sat in on his seminars, as well as Bob Ragsdales' and Alexander Kirrilovs'. (among many others--Bernie Pellerite, Frank Pearson, Larry Wise, Chris Jones, etc) I have not heard of any other tuning method called "supertuning" in my years in this business with the exception of once I overhead a tech call laser tuning this. Everything else is simply "tuning". As I stated, semantics. The procedure was aptly described for all to know what I was talking about, so please stop trying to rattle my cage.
And if you and C903 go over and read a little more about it, you may even choose to use the "creep tune", "supertune", (whatever you want to call it) method. It DOES work, and certainly is by no means a waste of time. I look at it this way--- If one person uses it and gets a harvest instead of a lost animal that will eventually die, to me that in itself is worth all of this trouble of bantering back and forth with the non-believers. Our sport is not one that is "good enough" accuracy-wise IMO, the game we hunt deserve better than the "that's good" lazy hunters who pick their bows up two days before the season and blow the dust off and shoot groups the size of a basketball at 20 yds. (seen lots of 'em, and they shouldn't be in the woods IMHO) And, the anti-hunters need no further fuel than what they already have, IMO. "Lazy hunters" need to get un-lazy, more educated about the sport and equipment, and work harder to ensure they make quick and clean kills. Utilizing better technical tactics and tuning methods to score better in tournaments only flows over into that persons' hunting shots too. I make my living from this sport.(two archery businesses)I live and breathe it, and want it to get BETTER for my children and grandchildren to fully enjoy in the future. (Most people do, but don't think about this part of it.) "That's good" is simply not good enough. Sorry for the rant.
SA---
Thank-you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/06/2002 13:26:08
11-06-2002, 12:17 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,062
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
OK-PSE and Pinwheel, lets calm down, your both right in a sence. George Chapman teaches the Medicine Stone supertune method, which is used mainly by long distance target shooters, and it works, but is not the best method for shooting broadheads. Pinwheel is telling you another supertune method. All tuning methods work, the end product is what your trying to achieve. Before you blast me about Mr. Chapman, yes I've been to his school, and yes I've done both methods of tuning, plus a few other ways. Do I use his method, no I don't, a basic paper tune at several distances, and a fast check of Pinwheels type method at 20 and 30 yards will usually have you shooting broadheads very good at "hunting" distances. Now, if your shooting at 100 meters with power scopes, Mr. Chapmans method will probably prevail, by the way, his method also includes a type of tuning that Pinwheel was trying to explain.
11-06-2002, 12:26 PM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What difference does it make if a person is an average shooter or not?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You meant this statement to be received as a piece of humor, didn't you? Surely, you are not serious? Also, are you saying that all that is required to accurately shoot at above averages distances, is that the "shine" be a little dulled; that you grab onto some confidence, pick up your bow, load an arrow, and just fire away?
Confidence is relevant, but confidence does not replace knowledge and skill.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...your confidence soars in knowing that if you can shoot great groups at 60yds- a shot at 25yds is all that much easier.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You talking target shooting? You definately are not referring to hunting conditions.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Plus, little tuning changes that you might not notice shooting at 30yds WILL show up shooting at 60yds.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That can, at times, be true. But there can be reverse affects also. Do you know what those reverse affects can be and what problems can occur?
I say; leave your broadening of your horizons on the target range. For the field and the purpose of shooting at a living animal, be as precise as you can be within the limits of your capabilities, your gear's capabilities, and within the limits of reality. Then, maybe less deer will be lost.
You meant this statement to be received as a piece of humor, didn't you? Surely, you are not serious? Also, are you saying that all that is required to accurately shoot at above averages distances, is that the "shine" be a little dulled; that you grab onto some confidence, pick up your bow, load an arrow, and just fire away?
Confidence is relevant, but confidence does not replace knowledge and skill.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...your confidence soars in knowing that if you can shoot great groups at 60yds- a shot at 25yds is all that much easier.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You talking target shooting? You definately are not referring to hunting conditions.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Plus, little tuning changes that you might not notice shooting at 30yds WILL show up shooting at 60yds.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That can, at times, be true. But there can be reverse affects also. Do you know what those reverse affects can be and what problems can occur?
I say; leave your broadening of your horizons on the target range. For the field and the purpose of shooting at a living animal, be as precise as you can be within the limits of your capabilities, your gear's capabilities, and within the limits of reality. Then, maybe less deer will be lost.
11-06-2002, 12:37 PM
#19
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Ok, I would like to throw a smart .... comment into the mix just for .... and giggles...
P12,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"that's good" lazy hunters who pick their bows up two days before the season and blow the dust off and shoot groups the size of a basketball at 20 yds <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Are we talking NBA basketballs here or those little kids ones, cuz those little kids ones are actually pretty small and I would think of it as a half decent group for some folks I know....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>....
......and is the basketball inflated?
<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
P12,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"that's good" lazy hunters who pick their bows up two days before the season and blow the dust off and shoot groups the size of a basketball at 20 yds <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Are we talking NBA basketballs here or those little kids ones, cuz those little kids ones are actually pretty small and I would think of it as a half decent group for some folks I know....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>....
......and is the basketball inflated?
<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
11-06-2002, 01:00 PM
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
c903-
Whether a person is an "average" shooter or not, should NOT preclude them from sharpening their skills. And part of sharpening your skills can be obtained by shooting long distances. When a person may see initially how large their groups may be at long distances, then they may be more motivated to improve tuning, form, ability.
I never said that someone should just fire away all willy-nilly at any distances. Confidence is very relevant, and I never said that it replaces knowledge or skill. WHERE does confidence come from in the first place?!? Obtaining SKILL and KNOWLEDGE!!
Instead of: "geez... is that 22yds or 26yds? I dunnoo...., I'm nervous, apprehensive...", you may have: "Yes- that's 24 yds because I KNOW it." Instead of: " oooh man, that buck is right at 27yds- that's a long shot for me, that's the edge of where I practice....", you may have: "27yds? no problem, I KNOW I can shoot great groups with my equipment at 50yds, so this shot will NOT a be problem".
It's sad to me to see people that 'seperate' target shooting and hunting shooting into two speperate worlds. In both cases you still are shooting a bow, have your shooting form, have a target in your sight, etc.... It is just with hunting that you have defined distance limits at the shot you're going to take out of respect for the animal. When I say shooting great groups at 60yds (field target) makes a 25yd shot (deer's vital zone) that much easier- I am NOT talking about either target shooting or hunting conditions. I'm talking about ARCHERY. Just because you will not take a shot past 30yds in the woods does not mean you shouldn't practice past 30yds on the range.
I agree that for hunting purposes that one should be as precise as possible and stay within the capability limits of you and your gear. I never implied anything to the contrary. I have always recommended and adhered to a 30yd max hunting range. So in your line of thinking, does that mean I should never bother to shoot any other distance past 30yds? Never bother to fine tune a bow past that distance? That any long range tuning won't help in my 0-30yd window?
Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 14:08:35
Whether a person is an "average" shooter or not, should NOT preclude them from sharpening their skills. And part of sharpening your skills can be obtained by shooting long distances. When a person may see initially how large their groups may be at long distances, then they may be more motivated to improve tuning, form, ability.
I never said that someone should just fire away all willy-nilly at any distances. Confidence is very relevant, and I never said that it replaces knowledge or skill. WHERE does confidence come from in the first place?!? Obtaining SKILL and KNOWLEDGE!!
Instead of: "geez... is that 22yds or 26yds? I dunnoo...., I'm nervous, apprehensive...", you may have: "Yes- that's 24 yds because I KNOW it." Instead of: " oooh man, that buck is right at 27yds- that's a long shot for me, that's the edge of where I practice....", you may have: "27yds? no problem, I KNOW I can shoot great groups with my equipment at 50yds, so this shot will NOT a be problem".
It's sad to me to see people that 'seperate' target shooting and hunting shooting into two speperate worlds. In both cases you still are shooting a bow, have your shooting form, have a target in your sight, etc.... It is just with hunting that you have defined distance limits at the shot you're going to take out of respect for the animal. When I say shooting great groups at 60yds (field target) makes a 25yd shot (deer's vital zone) that much easier- I am NOT talking about either target shooting or hunting conditions. I'm talking about ARCHERY. Just because you will not take a shot past 30yds in the woods does not mean you shouldn't practice past 30yds on the range.
I agree that for hunting purposes that one should be as precise as possible and stay within the capability limits of you and your gear. I never implied anything to the contrary. I have always recommended and adhered to a 30yd max hunting range. So in your line of thinking, does that mean I should never bother to shoot any other distance past 30yds? Never bother to fine tune a bow past that distance? That any long range tuning won't help in my 0-30yd window?
Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 14:08:35