Hoyt Questions
11-04-2002, 04:14 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 343
Hoyt Questions
I bought a used Hoyt Magnatec last year. It has the built-in overdraw and a redline HO cam. I have some questions about how forgiving, or unforgiving, this bow is.
First of all I've read a few comments on this website basically stating that the concept of overdraws is dead. Why is that?
Secondly, I believe my bow has a brace height of 7 inches. I understand that the shorter the brace height the less forgiving a bow is but does having an overdraw effectively reduce the brace height even further? All things equal is a bow with a given brace height and an overdraw less forgiving than one with the same brace height but no overdraw?
Thirdly, The Redline cam has been described as a "hard" cam and less forgiving. What is it about the cam design that makes it less forgiving?
Finally can somebody recommend a bow that is fairly short, fairly fast and yet forgiving? From the charts the Mathews MQ32 and SQ2 look pretty forgiving.
I'm definitely not an experienced veteran at shooting and for the most part I think I shoot fairly well but not as well as I would like to. I did improve my shooting dramatically after some set-up changes and tips from a guy at a new bow shop I went to this summer (the shop I bought the bow at was less than impressive service wise) but have missed a couple of shots at deer and chalk them up to form errors from not concentrating during the shot.
First of all I've read a few comments on this website basically stating that the concept of overdraws is dead. Why is that?
Secondly, I believe my bow has a brace height of 7 inches. I understand that the shorter the brace height the less forgiving a bow is but does having an overdraw effectively reduce the brace height even further? All things equal is a bow with a given brace height and an overdraw less forgiving than one with the same brace height but no overdraw?
Thirdly, The Redline cam has been described as a "hard" cam and less forgiving. What is it about the cam design that makes it less forgiving?
Finally can somebody recommend a bow that is fairly short, fairly fast and yet forgiving? From the charts the Mathews MQ32 and SQ2 look pretty forgiving.
I'm definitely not an experienced veteran at shooting and for the most part I think I shoot fairly well but not as well as I would like to. I did improve my shooting dramatically after some set-up changes and tips from a guy at a new bow shop I went to this summer (the shop I bought the bow at was less than impressive service wise) but have missed a couple of shots at deer and chalk them up to form errors from not concentrating during the shot.
11-04-2002, 04:55 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Hoyt Questions
Cabelas4toyes,
First, the original purpose for an overdraw was so that shooters could shoot shorter, lighter aluminum arrows in order to gain more speed. With the introduction of Easton ACCs and Internal Component Carbons this is no longer needed. An individual can shoot a full length carbon arrow at the same speed or faster than an overdraw aluminum. Plus, almost all of today's bows are significantly faster, and safer, than the bows that were utilized in the heyday of the overdraw. A full sized aluminum arrow shot out of one of today's bows is capable of achieving speeds that an overdrawn aluminum of one of yesteryear's bows could not come close to dreaming of.
Second, and to answer several questions at once, for the average shooter a short brace height can have the same effect as an overdraw in terms of the bow's inherent level of forgiveness. Ofcourse, in both cases, there are other factors that come into play....draw length for example but, on average a bow with an overdraw will be more critical of shooting errors when compared with one without an overdraw.
Third, the Redline HO cam is termed unforgiving for several reasons. For one, it is a traditional style single cam. Traditional style single cams are very sensitive to any inconsistancies in draw length. So, if you were to creep forward slightly during the shot then you can count on the arrow impacting several inches from its intended point of impact. The aggressive cam style also generally requires more effort to draw which can in turn cause more fatigue to your shooting muscles which then leads to sloppy overall form.
Finally, I can recommend several. Both the MQ32 and SQ2 are relatively forgiving for short axle to axle length bows because they have large brace heights. Any of the other models from the various companies that offer brace heights of roughly 7.5 inches or better coupled with your desired short axle to axle length should offer relatively forgiving designs for the average bowhunter.
I do sincerely hope this helps some.
First, the original purpose for an overdraw was so that shooters could shoot shorter, lighter aluminum arrows in order to gain more speed. With the introduction of Easton ACCs and Internal Component Carbons this is no longer needed. An individual can shoot a full length carbon arrow at the same speed or faster than an overdraw aluminum. Plus, almost all of today's bows are significantly faster, and safer, than the bows that were utilized in the heyday of the overdraw. A full sized aluminum arrow shot out of one of today's bows is capable of achieving speeds that an overdrawn aluminum of one of yesteryear's bows could not come close to dreaming of.
Second, and to answer several questions at once, for the average shooter a short brace height can have the same effect as an overdraw in terms of the bow's inherent level of forgiveness. Ofcourse, in both cases, there are other factors that come into play....draw length for example but, on average a bow with an overdraw will be more critical of shooting errors when compared with one without an overdraw.
Third, the Redline HO cam is termed unforgiving for several reasons. For one, it is a traditional style single cam. Traditional style single cams are very sensitive to any inconsistancies in draw length. So, if you were to creep forward slightly during the shot then you can count on the arrow impacting several inches from its intended point of impact. The aggressive cam style also generally requires more effort to draw which can in turn cause more fatigue to your shooting muscles which then leads to sloppy overall form.
Finally, I can recommend several. Both the MQ32 and SQ2 are relatively forgiving for short axle to axle length bows because they have large brace heights. Any of the other models from the various companies that offer brace heights of roughly 7.5 inches or better coupled with your desired short axle to axle length should offer relatively forgiving designs for the average bowhunter.
I do sincerely hope this helps some.
11-04-2002, 09:43 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 343
RE: Hoyt Questions
Very informative, thank you.
So with a relatively short brace height of 7 inches coupled with the overdraw I am going to have any errors in my form magnified significantly more than say the SQ2 Mathews which has a brace height of 8.5 inches. And with the redline cam I risk accuracy problems if I don't hold the draw fully against the back wall.
Say I buy one of the Mathews or a Hoyt Havoctec (which appears to be similar to the SQ2 spec wise except for an inch shorter brace height)do you think I would see a noticeable improvement in the accuracy and shootability of them? What if anything would I lose except maybe a few fps of speed?
One thing not really mentioned is the arrow length. Currently with the overdraw I shoot a 28.5 inch carbon arrrow. Assuming no overdraw would add a couple of inches in arrow length would that help or hurt the dynamics of an arrows flight? Are longer arrows better or worse than shorter arrows in any significant way?
So with a relatively short brace height of 7 inches coupled with the overdraw I am going to have any errors in my form magnified significantly more than say the SQ2 Mathews which has a brace height of 8.5 inches. And with the redline cam I risk accuracy problems if I don't hold the draw fully against the back wall.
Say I buy one of the Mathews or a Hoyt Havoctec (which appears to be similar to the SQ2 spec wise except for an inch shorter brace height)do you think I would see a noticeable improvement in the accuracy and shootability of them? What if anything would I lose except maybe a few fps of speed?
One thing not really mentioned is the arrow length. Currently with the overdraw I shoot a 28.5 inch carbon arrrow. Assuming no overdraw would add a couple of inches in arrow length would that help or hurt the dynamics of an arrows flight? Are longer arrows better or worse than shorter arrows in any significant way?
11-05-2002, 04:52 AM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Hoyt Questions
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> So with a relatively short brace height of 7 inches coupled with the overdraw I am going to have any errors in my form magnified significantly more than say the SQ2 Mathews which has a brace height of 8.5 inches. And with the redline cam I risk accuracy problems if I don't hold the draw fully against the back wall.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Yes and no. 7 inches should be considered more of an "average" brace height in the big scheme of things. Anything below 7 inches is generally considered on the low side. Most bows today range from 5.5 inches up to 9 depending the riser configuration, the limb angle, etc... But the rest of your first statement is definitely true.
Shooting off the backwall of a hard-drawing traditional single cam usually promotes better accuracy because you are consistantly drawing to the same place every time. If you are skilled enough to shoot out of the valley on one of these puppies (not personally recommended) then you should be able to achieve the same accuracy provided you are consistant in drawing to the exact same spot every time.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Say I buy one of the Mathews or a Hoyt Havoctec (which appears to be similar to the SQ2 spec wise except for an inch shorter brace height)do you think I would see a noticeable improvement in the accuracy and shootability of them? What if anything would I lose except maybe a few fps of speed? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That depends on whether or not you cant the bow. The one weak point of short axle to axle length bows, IMHO, is that they are easy to cant from side to side. This can result in misses above and below the animal as well as to the left and to the right. Installing a bubble level on your bow sight is the easiest way to rememdy this situation. But, provided you don't cant the bow I feel that a bow such a the MQ32 or Havoctec will be more accurate than the '99 Magnatec with the Redline HO cam for the very reasons I listed in my first post.
You might also want to look at the cam systems on both bows as well. Mathews utilizes the Straightline Maxcam style cam on both the SQ2 and MQ32 while the Havoctec (and similar Razortec) utilize Hoyt's new Cam and a Half system.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Assuming no overdraw would add a couple of inches in arrow length would that help or hurt the dynamics of an arrows flight? Are longer arrows better or worse than shorter arrows in any significant way?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Personally, I have found that a longer arrow is more forgiving but there has been considerable discussion on this in the past. Maybe one of the others might want to elaborate further on this issue.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 11/05/2002 06:15:30
Yes and no. 7 inches should be considered more of an "average" brace height in the big scheme of things. Anything below 7 inches is generally considered on the low side. Most bows today range from 5.5 inches up to 9 depending the riser configuration, the limb angle, etc... But the rest of your first statement is definitely true.
Shooting off the backwall of a hard-drawing traditional single cam usually promotes better accuracy because you are consistantly drawing to the same place every time. If you are skilled enough to shoot out of the valley on one of these puppies (not personally recommended) then you should be able to achieve the same accuracy provided you are consistant in drawing to the exact same spot every time.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Say I buy one of the Mathews or a Hoyt Havoctec (which appears to be similar to the SQ2 spec wise except for an inch shorter brace height)do you think I would see a noticeable improvement in the accuracy and shootability of them? What if anything would I lose except maybe a few fps of speed? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That depends on whether or not you cant the bow. The one weak point of short axle to axle length bows, IMHO, is that they are easy to cant from side to side. This can result in misses above and below the animal as well as to the left and to the right. Installing a bubble level on your bow sight is the easiest way to rememdy this situation. But, provided you don't cant the bow I feel that a bow such a the MQ32 or Havoctec will be more accurate than the '99 Magnatec with the Redline HO cam for the very reasons I listed in my first post.
You might also want to look at the cam systems on both bows as well. Mathews utilizes the Straightline Maxcam style cam on both the SQ2 and MQ32 while the Havoctec (and similar Razortec) utilize Hoyt's new Cam and a Half system.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Assuming no overdraw would add a couple of inches in arrow length would that help or hurt the dynamics of an arrows flight? Are longer arrows better or worse than shorter arrows in any significant way?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Personally, I have found that a longer arrow is more forgiving but there has been considerable discussion on this in the past. Maybe one of the others might want to elaborate further on this issue.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 11/05/2002 06:15:30
11-05-2002, 06:50 AM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chatsworth IL USA
Posts: 5,012
RE: Hoyt Questions
Wow Frank, i am proud of you. You did all of that without spanking the Mathews, you are coming around.
You mentioned loosing a couple of FPS in your last post. I don't know about the Hoyts, but PA will back me up on this. The SQ2 isn't the fastest bow in the world. My SQ2 is very accurate and pretty forgiving in my experiences. When I bought my bow they were out of the regular Mathews rest so I put on the 1" overdraw rest by mathews. That was the only difference in a buddies bow and mine. And they shot almost identicle. Same arrows (alum.)same draw weight, length, etc.... We shoot together at the bowshoots and once in a while at his house. We are both deadly accurate with these bows. But as Frank did mention, bow cant can throw you for a loop as compared to the longer bows. I went through a spell of shooting sparatically. Then I finally paid attention to my sight level and figured out I was canting the bow terribly. Started leveling before my shots and all went back to normal.
Good luck in you quest of a new bow!!
My Web Page
www.geocities.com/hfpmad
You mentioned loosing a couple of FPS in your last post. I don't know about the Hoyts, but PA will back me up on this. The SQ2 isn't the fastest bow in the world. My SQ2 is very accurate and pretty forgiving in my experiences. When I bought my bow they were out of the regular Mathews rest so I put on the 1" overdraw rest by mathews. That was the only difference in a buddies bow and mine. And they shot almost identicle. Same arrows (alum.)same draw weight, length, etc.... We shoot together at the bowshoots and once in a while at his house. We are both deadly accurate with these bows. But as Frank did mention, bow cant can throw you for a loop as compared to the longer bows. I went through a spell of shooting sparatically. Then I finally paid attention to my sight level and figured out I was canting the bow terribly. Started leveling before my shots and all went back to normal.
Good luck in you quest of a new bow!!
My Web Page
www.geocities.com/hfpmad
11-05-2002, 09:04 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chatsworth IL USA
Posts: 5,012
RE: Hoyt Questions
For the record Frank.....I feel about the same way about the Hoyts!
My Web Page
www.geocities.com/hfpmad
My Web Page
www.geocities.com/hfpmad
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