Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
02-06-2006, 05:22 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
In my opinion, the things that are done to get a faster arrow are the things that make for less stable flight. I think it's possible to get fairly stable flight at high speeds, but it is much more difficult than on a slower arrow.
Ususally one chooses a light arrow - difficult to get the spine stiff enough, which can lead to poor flight. Another way to get more speed easily is to use a lighter broadhead. Doing this, reduces the FOC, which always leads to less stable flight than a higher one would. Sometimes one switches to smaller vanes or no helical. A strong helical will create more drag and slow the arrow quicker, but it also straightens the arrow better.
The trick is to get a very stiff arrow shooting a relatively heavy broadhead with a good helical twist on the fletching to fly at high speeds. This is simply not easy to do.
The other factor is one's definition of stable flight. Some people accept a lot less than others demand.
Ususally one chooses a light arrow - difficult to get the spine stiff enough, which can lead to poor flight. Another way to get more speed easily is to use a lighter broadhead. Doing this, reduces the FOC, which always leads to less stable flight than a higher one would. Sometimes one switches to smaller vanes or no helical. A strong helical will create more drag and slow the arrow quicker, but it also straightens the arrow better.
The trick is to get a very stiff arrow shooting a relatively heavy broadhead with a good helical twist on the fletching to fly at high speeds. This is simply not easy to do.
The other factor is one's definition of stable flight. Some people accept a lot less than others demand.
02-06-2006, 08:29 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
If faster arrows are just as accurate - or more accurate as some are suggesting - then explain a couple of things to me... Why was there so much furor in IBO to shorten the maximum length for Mens Compound Release class to drop from 55 to 45 yards? Why did they shorten the maximum distances for the pro classes from 60 yards to 50 yards? With the faster bows and closer distances, why haven't the scores gone UP?
Isn't the entire point of the extra speed to be able to shoot flatter at longer distances and not have to be quite as exact with distance judgement? Seems like those maximum distances should be INCREASING instead of getting shorter, doesn't it?
I agree with Straightarrow. It's not the speed itself, but the things that are done to get the speed. Not only those things he correctlypointed out about arrow setup but also the design of the bows themselves. Shorteraxle to axle lengths,heavily reflexed risers, the atrocious force draw curves on the cams, high letoffs... all make bows less consistent, more subject to torque, more critical of minor form flaws, more critical of minor tuning misadjustments... less accurate. Period.
Oh, I hear ya! "If the shooter has good form, thebow will shoot accurately."That's an awful big IF. Not many people have the kind of robot-steady form it takes to shoot as accurately with that kind of rigas they could with a more forgiving but slower bow design and a more forgiving but slower arrow setup.
If these kinds of setups are less accurate on the target range (shorter distances with nocorrespondingincrease in average scores = less accuracy), there is no way they are as accurate with broadheadsin the hands of the average shooter in the woods.
Isn't the entire point of the extra speed to be able to shoot flatter at longer distances and not have to be quite as exact with distance judgement? Seems like those maximum distances should be INCREASING instead of getting shorter, doesn't it?
I agree with Straightarrow. It's not the speed itself, but the things that are done to get the speed. Not only those things he correctlypointed out about arrow setup but also the design of the bows themselves. Shorteraxle to axle lengths,heavily reflexed risers, the atrocious force draw curves on the cams, high letoffs... all make bows less consistent, more subject to torque, more critical of minor form flaws, more critical of minor tuning misadjustments... less accurate. Period.
Oh, I hear ya! "If the shooter has good form, thebow will shoot accurately."That's an awful big IF. Not many people have the kind of robot-steady form it takes to shoot as accurately with that kind of rigas they could with a more forgiving but slower bow design and a more forgiving but slower arrow setup.
If these kinds of setups are less accurate on the target range (shorter distances with nocorrespondingincrease in average scores = less accuracy), there is no way they are as accurate with broadheadsin the hands of the average shooter in the woods.
02-06-2006, 09:16 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr
I don't think that speed alone has any affect on accuracy. Now, I say that knowing that the higher the speed makes things less forgiving, thus affecting accuracy. But, if the archer is capable, a 400 fps arrow would be equally as accurate as a 200 fps arrow. Again, with the archer being capable.
I don't think that speed alone has any affect on accuracy. Now, I say that knowing that the higher the speed makes things less forgiving, thus affecting accuracy. But, if the archer is capable, a 400 fps arrow would be equally as accurate as a 200 fps arrow. Again, with the archer being capable.
02-06-2006, 11:36 AM
#14
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 519
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
This is all great information and I’m learning more and more, but I’m not coming up with a solid answer to make a decision, other than go with right helical and a heavier tip. I think I failed to give enough information for the question. Here is some more information to clarify what I’m trying to understand and learn:
I’m looking for the “perfect” hunting arrow to match my set-up. I will not sacrifice anything positive to gain speed. However, if my bow happens to produce such a high speed that my longer range accuracy is negatively effected by the faster speeds, then I figure I might as well go with a heavier arrow to gain better penetration and keep the best accuracy possible. However, I don't want to go to far to the other extreme and waste my flat trajectory by shooting a 550 grain arrow. There has got to be a balance in there somewhere and I think we can all agree with that.
My bow is a 36.5 ATA. I’m currently at 443 grain arrows .300 spine with 100 grain mechanicals with a low 7.2% FOC due to my recently installed arrow wraps. They have been shooting 3 inch groups at 60 yards. I want to try and improve this. My spine is slightly stiffer than I need. My current arrows are 29.5 inches long and that makes matters worse. I think I should have had them cut to 30.5 inches long to get me further inside the .300 spine category. I just sold these arrows yesterday, so this is my chance to start over and get it perfect or as perfect as possible. The speed I’m at is right around 285 with the 443 grain arrow. My thoughts are if this speed is causing accuracy loss with 4 inch 2 degree off-set fletching, then I want to take my arrow weight up enough to drop my speed to gain maximum accuracy potential. There is allot of knowledge right here on this web sight and I look forward to hearing what you guys recommend.
What is my goal? To build an arrow that matches my set-up for the best accuracy and keep the arrow flight at a speed that will compliment that accuracy.
These are the changes I was thinking of making:
Same brand arrows, but install the McKinney nock system. Make the arrows1 inch longer to bring me closer to the middle of the .300 spine class, thus adding more forgiveness to my arrows. Since this extra 1 inch length makes my FOC even lower, I was thinking of adding a 10 grain insert to the tip insert, this will also combat the extra weight on rear of arrow due to the4 grain increase from the upgraded nock system. Also my arrow wraps overlap each other byhalf an inch, so I want to cut them to exact length to eliminate the overlap which in my mind may be causing some out of balance during rotation. Keep the 4 inch vane with 2 degree off-set, or drop down to a 3 inch vane with 3 degree off-set.I know I’m splitting hairs here, but I like this stuff and I like knowing that I’m close to having a perfect arrow for my purposes. What do you recommend for the “perfect arrow” with these goals in mind or what speed do you think is max for best accuracy?
I’m looking for the “perfect” hunting arrow to match my set-up. I will not sacrifice anything positive to gain speed. However, if my bow happens to produce such a high speed that my longer range accuracy is negatively effected by the faster speeds, then I figure I might as well go with a heavier arrow to gain better penetration and keep the best accuracy possible. However, I don't want to go to far to the other extreme and waste my flat trajectory by shooting a 550 grain arrow. There has got to be a balance in there somewhere and I think we can all agree with that.
My bow is a 36.5 ATA. I’m currently at 443 grain arrows .300 spine with 100 grain mechanicals with a low 7.2% FOC due to my recently installed arrow wraps. They have been shooting 3 inch groups at 60 yards. I want to try and improve this. My spine is slightly stiffer than I need. My current arrows are 29.5 inches long and that makes matters worse. I think I should have had them cut to 30.5 inches long to get me further inside the .300 spine category. I just sold these arrows yesterday, so this is my chance to start over and get it perfect or as perfect as possible. The speed I’m at is right around 285 with the 443 grain arrow. My thoughts are if this speed is causing accuracy loss with 4 inch 2 degree off-set fletching, then I want to take my arrow weight up enough to drop my speed to gain maximum accuracy potential. There is allot of knowledge right here on this web sight and I look forward to hearing what you guys recommend.
What is my goal? To build an arrow that matches my set-up for the best accuracy and keep the arrow flight at a speed that will compliment that accuracy.
These are the changes I was thinking of making:
Same brand arrows, but install the McKinney nock system. Make the arrows1 inch longer to bring me closer to the middle of the .300 spine class, thus adding more forgiveness to my arrows. Since this extra 1 inch length makes my FOC even lower, I was thinking of adding a 10 grain insert to the tip insert, this will also combat the extra weight on rear of arrow due to the4 grain increase from the upgraded nock system. Also my arrow wraps overlap each other byhalf an inch, so I want to cut them to exact length to eliminate the overlap which in my mind may be causing some out of balance during rotation. Keep the 4 inch vane with 2 degree off-set, or drop down to a 3 inch vane with 3 degree off-set.I know I’m splitting hairs here, but I like this stuff and I like knowing that I’m close to having a perfect arrow for my purposes. What do you recommend for the “perfect arrow” with these goals in mind or what speed do you think is max for best accuracy?
02-06-2006, 12:26 PM
#15
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
I’m currently at 443 grain arrows .300 spine with 100 grain mechanicals with a low 7.2% FOC due to my recently installed arrow wraps. They have been shooting 3 inch groups at 60 yards. What do you recommend for the “perfect arrow” with these goals in mind or what speed do you think is max for best accuracy?
Sounds to me like you already have it. The slower the arrow the more forgiving the arrow. The faster the arrow the less forgiving the arrow. Accuracy affected by speed is mostly, not entirely, but MOSTLY up to the archer shooting the arrow. Some people can shoot fast arrows well, and some can't.
If you're getting a 3" group at 60 yards, I would think you are about as good as it gets. Perhaps your FOC is a tad low, but again, you sound pretty darn accurate to me.
02-06-2006, 01:16 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 519
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr
Sounds to me like you already have it. The slower the arrow the more forgiving the arrow. The faster the arrow the less forgiving the arrow. Accuracy affected by speed is mostly, not entirely, but MOSTLY up to the archer shooting the arrow. Some people can shoot fast arrows well, and some can't.
If you're getting a 3" group at 60 yards, I would think you are about as good as it gets. Perhaps your FOC is a tad low, but again, you sound pretty darn accurate to me.
I’m currently at 443 grain arrows .300 spine with 100 grain mechanicals with a low 7.2% FOC due to my recently installed arrow wraps. They have been shooting 3 inch groups at 60 yards. What do you recommend for the “perfect arrow” with these goals in mind or what speed do you think is max for best accuracy?
Sounds to me like you already have it. The slower the arrow the more forgiving the arrow. The faster the arrow the less forgiving the arrow. Accuracy affected by speed is mostly, not entirely, but MOSTLY up to the archer shooting the arrow. Some people can shoot fast arrows well, and some can't.
If you're getting a 3" group at 60 yards, I would think you are about as good as it gets. Perhaps your FOC is a tad low, but again, you sound pretty darn accurate to me.
Better arrow flight, and higher FOC.
02-06-2006, 06:15 PM
#18
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
There's only one way to find out I guess. Go shoot the bow after the right pivots are put in. If you can't hit water standing on the arch, something's wrong. My guess, though.....you won't even notice.
02-06-2006, 07:21 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,424
RE: Higher Speeds Taking A Toll On Accuracy?
I got news for you speed can make a big difference on shooting and accuracy. Like stated before it makes your bow less forgiving. WHY DO YOU THINK a lot of target archers shoot lower weight bows???? If speed was the key every major target archer would be shooting 300+ fps.....but they don't.....cause they wouldnt be as good.