Where are we headed...
10-19-2002, 07:28 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
Where are we headed...
...and what will YOU do when we get there.
Each year, technology advances a few more steps, bring us closer and closer to blazingly fast and shootable bows. Look what the speeds and braces have done in the last five years. Look ahead to the next five years. We could conservatively have an 8" brace bow giving us a shootable 370 fps. It made me shudder just to type that...
So, when we get there, what will you do? I've seen MANY of you profess that while your bow is capable of more, you choose to shoot a heavier arrow at around 270-80 fps because it is "a good hunting set up". When the IBO rating on your bow is 370, will you still shoot the same weight arrow as you do now, only 30-40 fps faster? What will this do to your broadhead flight? Will you switch to 2"+ cut mechanicals to get good flight and HUGE blood trails with the ensured penetration the KE you'll be flinging will provide? Or will you up the arrow weight, and stay in the 280 fps range, because it is a "good hunting set up". Can you imagine 600 grain arrows at 280 fps? Another shudder...
Speculate, guesstimate, what will you do?
Each year, technology advances a few more steps, bring us closer and closer to blazingly fast and shootable bows. Look what the speeds and braces have done in the last five years. Look ahead to the next five years. We could conservatively have an 8" brace bow giving us a shootable 370 fps. It made me shudder just to type that...
So, when we get there, what will you do? I've seen MANY of you profess that while your bow is capable of more, you choose to shoot a heavier arrow at around 270-80 fps because it is "a good hunting set up". When the IBO rating on your bow is 370, will you still shoot the same weight arrow as you do now, only 30-40 fps faster? What will this do to your broadhead flight? Will you switch to 2"+ cut mechanicals to get good flight and HUGE blood trails with the ensured penetration the KE you'll be flinging will provide? Or will you up the arrow weight, and stay in the 280 fps range, because it is a "good hunting set up". Can you imagine 600 grain arrows at 280 fps? Another shudder...
Speculate, guesstimate, what will you do?
10-19-2002, 07:53 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: Where are we headed...
Fun question RB...
ASSUMING, and this is a BIG ASSUMPTION, that the shootability remains at those increased speeds, I don't see why i would not be shooting at that speed.
Ona more relaistic level though, I think after a certain point for bowhunting purposes the increased speed is not worth the tradeoff. It will very likely boil even more down to perosnal shooting form.
However we are going to see a need for more precision in other areas....Tuning and Arrow Shaft quality especially, broadhead tolerances, etc..those are the things that will become big factors. A bow hooting 370 FPS is NOT going to tolerate a less than spined well shaft, or an arrow that is several grains different in weight than the one you tuned it with...any slight out of straightness on the broadhead ferrules will become magnified, fletching will need to impart greater conttrol, etc.
I shoot Mech's now, but I suspect I would definitely be shooting Mech's with more cutting diameter. The devestation is incredible now, but the entrance and exit wounds can ALWAYS be bigger <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
ASSUMING, and this is a BIG ASSUMPTION, that the shootability remains at those increased speeds, I don't see why i would not be shooting at that speed.
Ona more relaistic level though, I think after a certain point for bowhunting purposes the increased speed is not worth the tradeoff. It will very likely boil even more down to perosnal shooting form.
However we are going to see a need for more precision in other areas....Tuning and Arrow Shaft quality especially, broadhead tolerances, etc..those are the things that will become big factors. A bow hooting 370 FPS is NOT going to tolerate a less than spined well shaft, or an arrow that is several grains different in weight than the one you tuned it with...any slight out of straightness on the broadhead ferrules will become magnified, fletching will need to impart greater conttrol, etc.
I shoot Mech's now, but I suspect I would definitely be shooting Mech's with more cutting diameter. The devestation is incredible now, but the entrance and exit wounds can ALWAYS be bigger <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
10-19-2002, 09:43 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Washington State
Posts: 382
RE: Where are we headed...
Fun topic.
I think that I will probably go retro. Trade my single cam in for a stickbow and hand crested cedar shafts. I like seeing the arrow fly downrange.
I was watching a hunting show on TV the other night with my parents when my mom asked what type of rifle they were using. "It's a muzzleloader," I said. "No it's not," she said, "it has a bolt action, a scope and a stainless steel barrel." But it was indeed a very high tech blackpowder muzzleloader that to me was so advanced that it violated the spirit of the blackpowder-only hunt.
Maybe we will soon approach a zenith of technological advancement with our modern bows that will violate the 'primitiveness' of our sport. How about a 75 or 100 yard bowhunting shot with an extremely fast and accurate arrow? How about a micro sized guidance computer and steerable vanes/rudders like they have on modern smart weapons? Turn the dial on your bow to 'buck' aim in the general direction and let her fly?
I don't know how much more modern I care to be.
I think that I will probably go retro. Trade my single cam in for a stickbow and hand crested cedar shafts. I like seeing the arrow fly downrange.
I was watching a hunting show on TV the other night with my parents when my mom asked what type of rifle they were using. "It's a muzzleloader," I said. "No it's not," she said, "it has a bolt action, a scope and a stainless steel barrel." But it was indeed a very high tech blackpowder muzzleloader that to me was so advanced that it violated the spirit of the blackpowder-only hunt.
Maybe we will soon approach a zenith of technological advancement with our modern bows that will violate the 'primitiveness' of our sport. How about a 75 or 100 yard bowhunting shot with an extremely fast and accurate arrow? How about a micro sized guidance computer and steerable vanes/rudders like they have on modern smart weapons? Turn the dial on your bow to 'buck' aim in the general direction and let her fly?
I don't know how much more modern I care to be.
10-20-2002, 11:01 AM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Piedmont OK USA
Posts: 839
RE: Where are we headed...
We went from stick and string, to better stick and string, to compound stick (oops laminated stick) and string, to compound (no wood?) stick and string. Then we went to shorter sticks with higher performance. Now the sticks kick the little sticks faster, today's benchmark is 300+ fps.
Only the little sticks are no longer sticks. Cedar doesn't have the ability to handle the higher stresses. We went to aluminum sticks. They were too heavy and bent easily so we went to graphite sticks. These lighter, graphite sticks are pushed faster and flatter through the air. New materials will come about to make a lighter yet better spined arrow. This is a key limiting factor in our current situation.
There is some kinetic energy tradeoff to this but not much. The question must be asked. "Does it matter?" You can only shoot so far through a deer! Why do we want faster bows? Yes we could cut bigger holes and will have to adjust the broadhead size and weight as the physics change.
I think the secret reason so many hunters want faster bows is to push the effective range of the bow! So many technologies advanced to bring us to this point. Whats next? Well, I do see a plateau in the immediate future. After that we will start pushing the next magic number. What will it be? Will it be 350 fps? 375 or even 400 fps? Whatever it will surely be there. There are limitations to the physics given current setups. Some will be overcome through innovation and improving materials that will lower vibration and energy loss.
In order for these to be economically viable the technology on ancillary but necessary equipment will need to advance. There was a time when the military peep sight was the best thing going. Now for accuracy in rifles we use scopes. Will archery go this way as well? I don't think so but do not yet see the "next generation" in sights. It must advance beyond the kisser and/or peep site.
Other ancillary but necessary products will be improvements in release technologies and materials to dampen the vibration caused by energy loss. Still others may possibly be changes in veins, nocks and string technologies.
Man what a rambling subject. I confess to being ready to trade in my "old" Golden Eagle which puts out a "screamin'" 210 fps pushing an 85 grain broadhead on a graphite shaft. I welcome the opportunity to catch up and shoot 65% letoff 280+ fps products. The GE does get the job done. It kills 'em as dead as my abilities allow. I am ready to change because I see the plateau for the next 3-5 years which allows me to change without wishing I had waited.
Only the little sticks are no longer sticks. Cedar doesn't have the ability to handle the higher stresses. We went to aluminum sticks. They were too heavy and bent easily so we went to graphite sticks. These lighter, graphite sticks are pushed faster and flatter through the air. New materials will come about to make a lighter yet better spined arrow. This is a key limiting factor in our current situation.
There is some kinetic energy tradeoff to this but not much. The question must be asked. "Does it matter?" You can only shoot so far through a deer! Why do we want faster bows? Yes we could cut bigger holes and will have to adjust the broadhead size and weight as the physics change.
I think the secret reason so many hunters want faster bows is to push the effective range of the bow! So many technologies advanced to bring us to this point. Whats next? Well, I do see a plateau in the immediate future. After that we will start pushing the next magic number. What will it be? Will it be 350 fps? 375 or even 400 fps? Whatever it will surely be there. There are limitations to the physics given current setups. Some will be overcome through innovation and improving materials that will lower vibration and energy loss.
In order for these to be economically viable the technology on ancillary but necessary equipment will need to advance. There was a time when the military peep sight was the best thing going. Now for accuracy in rifles we use scopes. Will archery go this way as well? I don't think so but do not yet see the "next generation" in sights. It must advance beyond the kisser and/or peep site.
Other ancillary but necessary products will be improvements in release technologies and materials to dampen the vibration caused by energy loss. Still others may possibly be changes in veins, nocks and string technologies.
Man what a rambling subject. I confess to being ready to trade in my "old" Golden Eagle which puts out a "screamin'" 210 fps pushing an 85 grain broadhead on a graphite shaft. I welcome the opportunity to catch up and shoot 65% letoff 280+ fps products. The GE does get the job done. It kills 'em as dead as my abilities allow. I am ready to change because I see the plateau for the next 3-5 years which allows me to change without wishing I had waited.
10-20-2002, 09:43 PM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
10-20-2002, 10:19 PM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alvo Nebraska USA
Posts: 2,057
RE: Where are we headed...
I think we will see generally bows that are harder to draw {increased energy storage} and more accurate due to higher brace heights and better draw length adjustments. I look for a trend of 50 to 60 pound bows to become more common among hunters also.
10-21-2002, 02:59 AM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Where are we headed...
As materials improve, so will the amount of stress they can take, and then of course manufacturers will beef up speed. Man has been enamoured with speed since the beginning of time, we always try to get things to go faster, it's just the way we are.
20 years ago for example, one of the fastest bows on the planet was the original Oneida Eagle, at around 240-250 IBO speeds. Now, that benchmark speed is around 350fps. I honestly do not feel it will be another 20yrs before it is 450fps, especially knowing that they already have bows capable of 400fps that have been sitting in the depths of some R&D depts for over 2 years! Only problem that we face is that the rest of the industry is not yet ready--Arrow shaft manufacturers must build arrows capable of holding spine at these higher speeds, string materials must be made so they do not fail or stretch, etc., the list goes on.
AND, they must make the bows shootable. Lots of archers are coming to realize that if a bow isn't shootable, it isn't worth having around. "Rat-traps"-- 5"-6" brace heights, super radical reflex, and cams that take three men and a boy to pull are quickly disappearing, leaving the manufacturers to concentrate on accuracy, forgiveness, and smoothness. Eventually the speeds will bump up even with these forgiving designs, just as it has each year since the day the compound bow was invented.
I'll be shooting one for sure, no matter what the speed. In fact I look forward to testing them just as I have looked forward to every newer and faster bow I've ever picked up! I do wonder what these orgs that have "280" set in their bylaws will do however, they might have to re-think their position quicker than they thought. In fact, they are already a little late, IMHO! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 10/21/2002 04:11:01
20 years ago for example, one of the fastest bows on the planet was the original Oneida Eagle, at around 240-250 IBO speeds. Now, that benchmark speed is around 350fps. I honestly do not feel it will be another 20yrs before it is 450fps, especially knowing that they already have bows capable of 400fps that have been sitting in the depths of some R&D depts for over 2 years! Only problem that we face is that the rest of the industry is not yet ready--Arrow shaft manufacturers must build arrows capable of holding spine at these higher speeds, string materials must be made so they do not fail or stretch, etc., the list goes on.
AND, they must make the bows shootable. Lots of archers are coming to realize that if a bow isn't shootable, it isn't worth having around. "Rat-traps"-- 5"-6" brace heights, super radical reflex, and cams that take three men and a boy to pull are quickly disappearing, leaving the manufacturers to concentrate on accuracy, forgiveness, and smoothness. Eventually the speeds will bump up even with these forgiving designs, just as it has each year since the day the compound bow was invented.
I'll be shooting one for sure, no matter what the speed. In fact I look forward to testing them just as I have looked forward to every newer and faster bow I've ever picked up! I do wonder what these orgs that have "280" set in their bylaws will do however, they might have to re-think their position quicker than they thought. In fact, they are already a little late, IMHO! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 10/21/2002 04:11:01
10-21-2002, 07:51 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oh USA
Posts: 1,584
RE: Where are we headed...
Pinwheel, I agree about the rethinking on 280 fps. Personally I don't care, as 280 is a good shootable point, for me. I can turn my bow down to 57# and shoot a 360 gr arrow a little over that. Nice and easy, as well as quiet. I have the capability of shooting an IBO legal arrow 35 fps over the limit, though. I'm not so sure scores would go up. Possibly in the pro ranks, but I find better consistency with my current setup, as opposed to faster.
Jeff, I agree with you, in that, arrow and broadhead technology will need to improve to utilize the advancing bow technology. There are great things to come.
I really look forward to being able to pull less and less weight, and get the same speeds. Hopefully this doesn't mean pulling 60# bows that feel like 70#ers.
I'm very happy to see manufacturers coming out with more dual cams. After shooting one for awhile now, I prefer them. Can't wait for my dual cam Patriot to arrive.
<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."
Edited by - pdq 5oh on 10/21/2002 08:52:30
Jeff, I agree with you, in that, arrow and broadhead technology will need to improve to utilize the advancing bow technology. There are great things to come.
I really look forward to being able to pull less and less weight, and get the same speeds. Hopefully this doesn't mean pulling 60# bows that feel like 70#ers.
I'm very happy to see manufacturers coming out with more dual cams. After shooting one for awhile now, I prefer them. Can't wait for my dual cam Patriot to arrive.
<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."
Edited by - pdq 5oh on 10/21/2002 08:52:30
10-22-2002, 05:55 AM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Where are we headed...
I would like to request a 3 inch cutting diameter mechanical please....that is, if I am going to be shooting at those speeds with that heavy of an arrow...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I thought I might keep it short since everyone else put together such eloquent posts. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Oh, one thing though, I think I could bring myself to shoot closer to 300 fps rather than 280 if I were to go with a 540 grain or so arrow...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> (sarcastic smiley)
I thought I might keep it short since everyone else put together such eloquent posts. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Oh, one thing though, I think I could bring myself to shoot closer to 300 fps rather than 280 if I were to go with a 540 grain or so arrow...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> (sarcastic smiley)