brace height, riser or ATA
12-06-2005, 10:24 AM
#31
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Gibblet--
Shoot-thru systems were designed to help eliminate side torque of a cableguard and the resulting cam lean/friction associated with it. This was very apparent on theshorter riser bows withlonger limb lengths of 16" or more, due to the fact that torsional rigidity (side to side twisting movement)of the limbtipswas compromised somewhat with the longer limb length andtravel. Hysteresis values (friction within the system)dropped significantly when utilizing a shoot-thru system with those original configurations of yesteryear.
Nowadays tho, many manufacturers have taken a different route and virtually eliminated the friction and side-pull---by utilizing a longer riser, and shorter, stiffer, limbs. Torsional rigidity is thusmuch higher on shorter limbs and the resulting limbtwist from sidepull is not anywhere near as apparent. The amount of travel is less also,hysteresis values are lower, and dynamic efficiency is much higher. Basically there is no huge advantage to them like there once was. That's it in a nutshell.
Arthur-
Iam not saying that you do not shoot well with a deflex bow--- it works for youand that is fine with me. What I am saying tho is that two bows, one ofdeflex design, and one ofreflex design, of theSAME ATA and brace, andusing the same cams, will shoot exactly the same for either a machine or an individual, regardless of form. The only way a deflex riser would become a more stable platform is if the brace heights and configurations were to vary, and this is where I think many are comparing apples to oranges.
Bone structure--correct form is correct form and has nothing to do with a bows' mechanics during a shot sequence.If you torque one bow with your individual imparted torque, you will torque them all the sameIF they are ofof the same ATA, brace, and drawlength. Whether your form bites the big oneor not, makes little difference to anything other than your individualaccuracy, and thuswill affect any bow you shoot in varying degreesONLY if they are of differing configs..If a deflex works great, but is of the same configuration as a reflex, honestly it will notbe any moreforgivingas far as stability or accuracy goes---that is IMHOapsychological premise derived from shooting two different configs.(or many different configs)AgainI think that you are on the same track but comparing a standard reflex with say7" brace to a deflex with 9+" brace, and a round wheel to a cam, etc., and this is where the misconceptions that one riser design is more forgiving than another come from.
If not thenwe can simply thenagree to disagree on this one.
Either way, good shooting.
Shoot-thru systems were designed to help eliminate side torque of a cableguard and the resulting cam lean/friction associated with it. This was very apparent on theshorter riser bows withlonger limb lengths of 16" or more, due to the fact that torsional rigidity (side to side twisting movement)of the limbtipswas compromised somewhat with the longer limb length andtravel. Hysteresis values (friction within the system)dropped significantly when utilizing a shoot-thru system with those original configurations of yesteryear.
Nowadays tho, many manufacturers have taken a different route and virtually eliminated the friction and side-pull---by utilizing a longer riser, and shorter, stiffer, limbs. Torsional rigidity is thusmuch higher on shorter limbs and the resulting limbtwist from sidepull is not anywhere near as apparent. The amount of travel is less also,hysteresis values are lower, and dynamic efficiency is much higher. Basically there is no huge advantage to them like there once was. That's it in a nutshell.
Arthur-
Iam not saying that you do not shoot well with a deflex bow--- it works for youand that is fine with me. What I am saying tho is that two bows, one ofdeflex design, and one ofreflex design, of theSAME ATA and brace, andusing the same cams, will shoot exactly the same for either a machine or an individual, regardless of form. The only way a deflex riser would become a more stable platform is if the brace heights and configurations were to vary, and this is where I think many are comparing apples to oranges.
Bone structure--correct form is correct form and has nothing to do with a bows' mechanics during a shot sequence.If you torque one bow with your individual imparted torque, you will torque them all the sameIF they are ofof the same ATA, brace, and drawlength. Whether your form bites the big oneor not, makes little difference to anything other than your individualaccuracy, and thuswill affect any bow you shoot in varying degreesONLY if they are of differing configs..If a deflex works great, but is of the same configuration as a reflex, honestly it will notbe any moreforgivingas far as stability or accuracy goes---that is IMHOapsychological premise derived from shooting two different configs.(or many different configs)AgainI think that you are on the same track but comparing a standard reflex with say7" brace to a deflex with 9+" brace, and a round wheel to a cam, etc., and this is where the misconceptions that one riser design is more forgiving than another come from.
If not thenwe can simply thenagree to disagree on this one.
Either way, good shooting.
12-06-2005, 11:58 AM
#32
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
since some smart folks are on this one, where does having a cable slide as opposed to a shoot thru fit into the forgiveness thing. i ask because a shoot thru really interests me.
12-06-2005, 12:01 PM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
ince some smart folks are on this one, where does having a cable slide as opposed to a shoot thru fit into the forgiveness thing. i ask because a shoot thru really interests me.
12-06-2005, 03:24 PM
#34
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Okay, Pinwheel, we agree to disagree, for now. Eventually, you have ocassion to shoot another deflex riser bow - I know you have done so in the past - and you will wind upagreeing with me.
12-06-2005, 07:15 PM
#37
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
While a shoot through system may be advantageous for tournament shooting, a hunting configuration would need some modification. The cables tend to slap each other and make some noise that would be detrimental to a hunting situation.
As far as forgiving bows, quite a few of my customers (some BBSmembers)witnessed a test I didearlier thisyear. It went as follows:
Bow #1; 38" ATA, 6 1/2" BH, 1.25" reflex, standard recurve limbs.
Bow #2; 37.5" ATA, 7" BH, 1.75+" reflex, parallel limbs.
I shot bow #2 for about 30 days to assure that I was accustomed to it. I noticed that I was getting more 'flyers' with this bow than which I was accustomed.
After the 30 day period I went to bow #1. I saw no difference in accuracy when given enough time to execute the shot in either bow. I did notice that bow #1 didn't give me the 'flyers' that were prevalent in #2.
It was when I went to shooting more quickly that I really noticed the difference. Even though bow #2 hadthe 'advantageous'higher BH and parallel limb technology, the groups opened up significantly. Therefore, since I'm more a hunter, who has sometimes seconds to geta shot off at a target that can move,than a target shooter, who has up to 2 minutes to get a shot off at a stationary target, I hadto go with bow #1. The ONLY true geometry difference between the bows, in spite of #2 having the more 'beneficial' higher BH and parallel limb technology, was the amount of reflex. Thus, I contend that hunters should strive to get a bow with less reflex, or even a deflex riser, to give them more of an advantage in a less than stable arena.
Arthur:
Very well put.
Kevin:
We'll have to agree to disagree again.
As far as forgiving bows, quite a few of my customers (some BBSmembers)witnessed a test I didearlier thisyear. It went as follows:
Bow #1; 38" ATA, 6 1/2" BH, 1.25" reflex, standard recurve limbs.
Bow #2; 37.5" ATA, 7" BH, 1.75+" reflex, parallel limbs.
I shot bow #2 for about 30 days to assure that I was accustomed to it. I noticed that I was getting more 'flyers' with this bow than which I was accustomed.
After the 30 day period I went to bow #1. I saw no difference in accuracy when given enough time to execute the shot in either bow. I did notice that bow #1 didn't give me the 'flyers' that were prevalent in #2.
It was when I went to shooting more quickly that I really noticed the difference. Even though bow #2 hadthe 'advantageous'higher BH and parallel limb technology, the groups opened up significantly. Therefore, since I'm more a hunter, who has sometimes seconds to geta shot off at a target that can move,than a target shooter, who has up to 2 minutes to get a shot off at a stationary target, I hadto go with bow #1. The ONLY true geometry difference between the bows, in spite of #2 having the more 'beneficial' higher BH and parallel limb technology, was the amount of reflex. Thus, I contend that hunters should strive to get a bow with less reflex, or even a deflex riser, to give them more of an advantage in a less than stable arena.
Arthur:
Very well put.
Kevin:
We'll have to agree to disagree again.
12-07-2005, 05:33 AM
#38
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Unfortunately, annecdotal evidence does little to prove one theory over the other. A bow may shoot higher scores because of something as simple as a grip that fits the archer better. The real problem with personal testing, is that no two models are exactly the same with the only difference being the amount of reflex.
I must say, that in theory what Merlin says on their website, makes sense to me. Regardless, I will still choose a hunting bow based on a brace height that I feel is a minimum I should have to insure uninhibited string movement on all shots, in all hunting situations. The ATA will be in the range that "hits" my anchors best, and the grip will still be very important to me. I've been very happy with hunting bows that I've chosen based on these measurements.
I must say, that in theory what Merlin says on their website, makes sense to me. Regardless, I will still choose a hunting bow based on a brace height that I feel is a minimum I should have to insure uninhibited string movement on all shots, in all hunting situations. The ATA will be in the range that "hits" my anchors best, and the grip will still be very important to me. I've been very happy with hunting bows that I've chosen based on these measurements.
12-07-2005, 06:39 AM
#39
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
"Annecdotal" as some may think it is, I've been doing this same test for many years with a LOT of different bows. I try to 'better' the old design that I use many times a year and every year many ofmy regular customers want to know how the 'tests' go. One bow design that I found to be equivalent was Hoyt's XTec/VTec. Guess what, the reflex factor happens to be the same at 1.25".
They have a little more BH, which would be better; but, I can'thunt witha 'Tec' riser.[:@]
They have a little more BH, which would be better; but, I can'thunt witha 'Tec' riser.[:@]
