moonge

Len I am just curious why an exchange for another product is bad? I would imagine that GKF would try to help the cutomer to get the rest that best meets their needs. The customer would also have the option to return it to the place of purchase if they did not like it. If it breaks I'll take a lifetime anyday over a 30 day. The main thing is that as a consumer you have choices, some may like the GKF product while others may like the MZE. As with any purchase the person whould do research, ask questions, and as always go with the product they feel gives them the best product for the money. For some that may be the Muzzy and for others it may be the Mirage. In the end I know where you stand & you know where I stand about what we like & use. In the end this forum is a place for helping others and to offer advice. Lets just keep it at that and not sling darts about which is better or who does what better. Lets just state the facts and specs & then people can decide what they like.

Of course if you want to start another thread debating the virtues of the MZE against the Mirage I would be willing to take you up on that! would be a fun one......<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Len in Maryland

Moonage: I've stayed clear of this subject on this forum and quite a few others to see where certain posters would go with this. It is quite evident that there are some who generally tout one particular manufacturer and try to spin the truth about performance characteristics. I don't have to promote the MZE, it does extremely well on its on.

You, et al, seem to promote certain products even when the subject specifically centers around the merits of another product. I can surely bring up instances but that would make this post way too lengthy.

You stated &quot;Len I am just curious why an exchange for another product is bad?&quot; Please don't misinterpret me. To reiterate: &quot;Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out which guarantee is better?&quot; I DIDN'T say it would be bad, just that a monetary exchange would be better. It allows the customer to make a decision to buy whatever product from whatever manufacturer they so desire. It is not, 'I've got your money and you have to buy one of my other products until you find one you like!'

Also, the GKF guarantee is a &quot;Limited Lifetime Guarantee&quot;. You stated that it is a &quot;lifetime&quot; guarantee and that is wrong. What does the fine print detail??

When you stated that &quot;The main thing is that as a consumer you have choices....&quot;, you couldn't be more true. At least the Muzzy 30 day money back guarantee gives you the choice to choose another manufacturer's rest. That may even wind up being a GKF product; but, at least you have the choice. Does the GKF guarantee allow the customer to choose another company's product - NO!

Then you seemed to end with the statement, &quot;In the end this forum is a place for helping others and to offer advice. Lets just keep it at that and not sling darts about which is better or who does what better. Lets just state the facts and specs & then people can decide what they like.&quot; I think my record shows that I do help others a lot on this and other forums to understand the technical aspect of products. If you're referring to my questioning of Rob02's comment, it is a very straightforward question about a comment pertaining to technical aspects of a product. What is wrong with asking someone to explain their comments?

And, why should or would I want to debate with you? Remember, you said, and I agree, that we have to present people with facts; these facts should be based upon having properly evaluated different products. I have done my evaluation and presented my findings here and elsewhere. All I've seen from you and many others is opinion that is not based on having done a thorough evaluation of each product. I totally understand that everyone can't afford to purchase each and every product for an indepth evaluation which should not be limited to anything less than destructive testing. I, however, have done this sort of testing due to the fact that I have to convince my customers to buy certain products and want them to trust my evaluation.

There was a thread not to long ago that pointed out that many will buy a product and rave about it initially. If they have problems at a later date, they hardly ever come back on to expound on the negatives. Then there are those who will rave about a product because they may be somehow connected to the manufacturer. I know that there are some manufacturers who actually have 'followers' who will continuously get on the forums to tout their products.

Have a nice day and a great hunting season.

moonge

Yes Len some promote certain products...you are just as guilty as the next when it comes to the MZE (400 customesr can't be wrong right?) anyway dishing me for my faith in Golden Key is no big deal to me, you promote the MZE all the time. I too have been in the busines and have shot & tested many products. I like a large number of products but in the end I have had much better luck with Golden Key than any other rest...except that old Flipper rest that I used to use theylasted forever.

Clearly you have not dealt with Golden Key regarding warranty issues. They always went out of their way to help my customers or myself when I sold archery equipment. The issue of a limited warranty never came into question. They always made it right. If in the end the customer wanted their money back I gave it back to them, it's called good customer service by the retailer. Almost any good retailer will take back a product within 30 days including Bass Pro or Cabelas, the 30 day money back gurantee from Muzzy is a moot point. If you do not support your customers by exchanging a product they are not happy with then you should!

Len you do offer a lot of good information but I have also seen you try to be a bit much when you try to show how smart you are with archery. none of us know everything including you or me. I think you need to realize that your &quot;in your face&quot; &quot; I am right, you must be wrong&quot; attitude can be a turn off. sorry to be blunt but yes you have faults too....just as I do. I can't spell worth a flip which is one of them! ;-)

Yes I am sure some companies pay people to promote their products...archery is a business right? I would if I had a company......Heck I would like to have a shooter like Randy Ulmer using my product, oh yea Golden Key does! ;-) I promote what I think is good equipment that I have learned works very well. I do play around a lot and am blessed with a good local proshop that allows me to do that. I have heard the same statements about you & your constant promotion of muzzy & the MZE. so which of us is right? neither? both? depends on how you look at it I guess.

My full intent was more of a jab and for a sense of humor about a Mirage vs. MZE post, it would have been interesting. Clearly I must have angered you in some way shape or form in my suggestion of it. Not sure why but I guess it did.

Yes I always have a great day, happy to be alive to be honest. I am having a great hunting season too.....thanks Golden Key for making a heck of an arrows rest and some cool broadheads! Oh yes I must thank Dicks sporting goods for having a good sale on the GKF Reaper broadheads - 12.99 a pack - what a deal! Sorry Len....I had to get a little promotion in...I am sure Dicks isn't going to give me jack but the rest GKF did give me.....I won it by finding the Waldo tag contest they had on their web site, yes I had to work at it to find it too. Sorry to sink your ship but I'm not getting paid to promote jack :-( I wish I was though! oh heck I better just say thank you to Mathews too, they make a fine bow...it cost me a lot of money but well worth it.....thanks Mr. McPhearson for taking my money!

.....time for bed.

bbahunter

My opinion is the muzzy zero effect. I have both rests, and the muzzy is still on the bow, and the mirage is in my spare parts box!

Brian

Roland from Calif.

my .02 cents. I have three bows all of them have MZE's on them. I have three hunting partners who got tired of getting their butts kicked in 3d, who now all have MZE's on their bows. Collectively we hunt all over the western US every year and spend big money doing it. The MZE takes a licking and keeps on ticking. FWIW, we replaced platinum premiers which last time I checked cost $100.00 also.
One of my bows has had an MZE on it for two years and has been shot at least 3000 times. I've had zero problems (no pun intended).

Moonge, lighten up partner. I know Len a helluva lot better than you do and he never promotes a product unless he has done some serious testing. The reason he promotes the MZE is because it works for us diehard bowhunters that got tired of having their arrows fall of the rest. (I missed opportunites at two big bulls because of that). When your spending 5k on a hunt and the arrow falls of the rest, and that ends up being your only opportunity on the entire hunt you start looking for a better solution. Enough said.

Jonathan, good luck on what ever rest you choose. That being said I'd put a lot more stock in what Len has stated than anyone else on this thread.

Edited by - Roland from Calif. on 10/24/2002 12:48:02

field14

I know Len well from the other forums and also as an e-mail exchanger with me on many, many occasions. He will certainly call the kettle black, just like I will.

I have NOT shot the MZE arrow rest, but I couldn't if I wanted to on my particular bows because I dont' have a cable guard or cable slide to hook it to. Nor do I want a cable guard to hook it to anyways.

However, when it comes to GKF arrow rests, that is a point where I can't sit back and have people, based upon ONE experience draw a line in the sand. I have Golden Key arrow rests that are over 20 years old and I can still shoot them if I so choose. I have a Golden Premier that has shot many, many thousands of shots and it is still as good as the day I took it out of the package.

I have tried the TT arrow rest, and the ARC, and the Golden Key - and I must say that while I liked the other two rests, neither of them offered the fine tune adjustability of the Golden Key fall aways, and I mean NONE of them. First off, I do NOT believe in a large amount of travel in any fall away arrow rest - to me too much movement means a chance of movement occuring before I want it to. I learned the hardway on my ARC and TT that 1&quot; of travel is ludicrous when you only NEED to have those vanes clear the rest. What I learned is that if you go with a large amount of travel, then the instant your cable moves, then so does the rest support arm and you end up shooting fliers high or low at the longer (&gt;50 yards) distances that seemed unexplainable. As soon as I &quot;listened&quot; and utilized a spring mechanism between the lanyard and the rest and then ran the string to the busss cable, I was able to tune in a 'delay' in the fall of that rest and my groups and consistencey improved immediately as if someone flipped a light switch. I had also minimized the rise and fall of the rest to just enough to allow the fletches to clear.

In this sport, if you use something up, you MUST give away something in return. Gain speed, you give up some stability and forgiveness, increase the noise, vibration, and jarring effects, and increase the chances of something rattling loose as well.

Too much rise and fall of the arrow rest arm and you chance having things go prematurely, or you have great difficulties shooting for beans on a 'soft' day or you chase sight marks for no apparent reason.

A person is going to shoot what works best for them, but there are way too many people out there that are tunnel visioned when it comes to things - - POUNDAGE - people pick a poundage and will spend months trying to shoot THAT poundage and won't move it a bit up or down to find the sweet spot for the arrow/broadhead combo.

Rests - they will spend months with a rest setting instead of trying to set things to the MINIMUM amount of movement or minimum setting to get the job done - people really tend to go overboard on CLEARANCE when it comes to arrow rests - to the bad expense of losing the inherent advantages to them.

Arrows - people at first thought that overdraws and lighter arrows were the way to go - until they wised up that their penetration, noise, vibration, and accuracy went to heck in a hay basket. Now, most people are away from overdraws and back into reality of getting some &quot;punch&quot; behind the arrows again - - many are shooting them still way to light, but not as bad as just 5 years ago.

GKF has been around since 1968 in the arrow rest industry. They know what they're doing and support their products to the nth degree.

MZE builds a fine arrow rest too, but that doesn't mean they are for everyone, just like the trophy taker isn't for everyone either.

Personally, I&quot;ll stick with the GKF products simply because of the track record I've had with them since 1972 when I got my first one. I always fall back to them, and believe you me, I've tried pretty much everything out there at one time or the other. That includes me even contacting Len over a year ago concerning the MZE fall away - - until I found out you needed a cable guard to use one. Then that was totally the end of the issue for ME.

Think of adjustability, stability, reliability, number of screws and the potential of breakage or things coming loose. There is a lot more to this game and the fairness of the chase than a brand name.

Whatever works..

field14

field14

Pinwheel 12

Quote: &quot;Whatever works&quot;.

Yep. That's it in a nutshell.

That being said, I always keep going back to my GKF Golden Premier with Carbon Supreme launcher for all tournament applications. I shot a perfect round in regional 3D competition some years ago with that rest,(can't get much better than that!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) and even tho I have tried the newest &quot;fads&quot; in rests each year, (tech, of course I play with new stuff!) have found for me that nothing works as well as what I have had the utmost confidence in and ease of tuning with for many years.

We all try the new &quot;fads&quot; but like alot of things, alot of them fall by the wayside after a few years.

So I agree totally with the Quote above, sometimes you have to look thru the hype and go back to what you KNOW works every time. Keep it simple and easily adjustable, with the fewest moving parts to eliminate the number of possibilities of failure. Works for me! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Just my two cents, Pinwheel 12

ijimmy

Roland hit the nail on the head , I was trying to say the same thing but could not think of a nice way to do it . Lens trying to promote a great product . I believe its of much better quality than the mirage , as I've said before the golden key premier rest are of outstanding quality .

If information provided by the members of this board have helped you please let us know .

Roland from Calif.

I came back and reviewed this post and it appears that I gave the impression that golden key doesn't make a quality product, or at least that is how some of you percieved it.

Before the MZE the &quot;only rest&quot; I used was a golden key platinum premier. Great product and I never had any problems with it. However from a hunting standpoint the MZE just fits my needs better. Hunting in the west with a bow is tad different than hunting whitetails from a treestand. I'm sure you've all seen the video's on the outdoor channel so I won't go into much detail here. Suffice to say that bull's coming to a bugle can be a down right unnerving experience. I hope you all have the experience at least once in you life. Arrows falling of the rest is a common occurance for the weak of heart like myself. The main reason I switched to an MZE was more it arrow capture capability than its drop away functionality. FWIW, this also happened to Len when he went to Montana elk hunting, and he's someone that handles a bow everyday. So back before everyone else jumped on the drop away/arrow capture bandwagon Len started looking for a solution that would help us folks that continued to have arrows fall of the rest at the worst possible moment. Enter the MZE, being a little bit of a gear head and always willing to try something new, I was excited when he called me and said I think we have solution to this problem. Needless to say my bow was on its way FEDX the next day. Got it back about a week later and couldn't believe how well it shot, held the arrow close to the bow shelf and basically did eveything I needed for an upcoming hunt. Moral of the story I got a 6x6 elk on the next hunting trip, in a situation that was less than ideal. Matter of fact I bet the dreaded arrow falling of the rest would have more than likely happened again. The bull came in silent and the next thing I know my guide is going, &quot;don't move, just look out of the corner of your eye, their's a nice bull about 8 yards from you&quot;. Damn near had a heart attack, and thought we were screwed for sure. Fortunately I had nocked an arrow before we stopped and all I had to do was keep my eyes on him as moved to about 25 yards and glance down just for a nanosecond and clip my release on the string. Never had to worry about whether or not the arrow was going to be there. Well the rest is history and I got a nice bull. So folks that is why I have an MZE on all my bows. I'm sure that other drop aways function well, and to each there own. And for those folks with better nerves than I have a regular rest probably works just fine also.

Have a great hunting season and hope all your arrows hit the sweet spot.

ijimmy, thanks for the support.

Len in Maryland

I guess I'll have to reiterate statements that I've made many, MANY times. If some have followed my posts on this Mirage issue, you would have seen that I praised GKF many times for their excellent products. Without them this industry wouldn't be as far as it is today. They are a great company and stand tall as one of our pioneers.

The GKF Mirage drop-away, however, is quite a different issue. IMO they rushed it to the market to get a portion of the drop-away business and didn't do their normal design/quality excellence that we've come to expect. They readily admit to problems and have corrected some of them. This rest, however, is NOT up to the design/manufacturing standards that I've seen over the years from GKF. The testing that I did on the Mirage indicated a very fragile and problem-prone product.

Most of those in an adversarial mode know that I have commented positively about most of the GKF product line. Please don't think that I have any real problem with GKF and the majority of their products. On the contrary, I like their products in general. It's only the Mirage that is a real problem with me.

And for those who think I sell mainly the MZE, you're wrong. The NAP 2000 and 4000 come in as a good second to the Zero Effect. We also stock the Tropy Taker drop-away, Schaffer drop-away, and MPSI Bushmaster drop-away. As far as other rests, we have about 20-30 different brands on the shelves right now. In fact, we presently have about 30 GKF rests of various styles in stock as I write this.

I hope this clarifies this issue.