Gun Dog Buying Advice
10-27-2009, 04:02 PM
#11
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,681
I would ask if they are show dogs or hunting dogs.. I would want the hunting line only... I would ask if they have any champions out of the kennel in question. If They say yes i would want the names of them and if they can prove my sending you something on it. Perhaps an e-mail with some sort of copy of the info you request.. Alot do shy away from the AKC reg and such. It never bothered me none if they can show the proof I am looking for.. Again as long as the proof is not for show dogs.. If they say they can do both I would seriously put the questions to them. That is not to say that it is impossible for both but it is quite uncommon..
I would be carefull of them trying to push a dog onto you to quickly so that you can have time to check them out better.. The references and also tell you something of the kennel as long as they can provide some numbers and these folks are not related to the owners..
I can not give you the prices for a male black lab as I own Irish Setters and my research was quite intensive to find some good hunting dog in these lines.. The costs for these is quite steep as well.. But the kennel searching is the same when trying to locate a good gun dog. After all you want what you want not what some one wants you to have.. Good Luck in your searching and with your new pup when you get him...
I would be carefull of them trying to push a dog onto you to quickly so that you can have time to check them out better.. The references and also tell you something of the kennel as long as they can provide some numbers and these folks are not related to the owners..
I can not give you the prices for a male black lab as I own Irish Setters and my research was quite intensive to find some good hunting dog in these lines.. The costs for these is quite steep as well.. But the kennel searching is the same when trying to locate a good gun dog. After all you want what you want not what some one wants you to have.. Good Luck in your searching and with your new pup when you get him...
10-27-2009, 04:17 PM
#12
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 5
Burdbuster,
A few suggestions for you based on your post. First, see if there are any active retriever clubs in your immediate area or region. Seek to join a club and go to a scheduled event (hunt test). While at a hunt test, try and observe some dogs at the junior, senior, and master hunter stakes. This will give you a good perspective of what levels of training can be achieved by a retriever and his owner / handler / trainer. Do not be afraid to ask questions of and network with club members. Be up front and tell them you are looking to purchase and train a retriever. You will find that these folks are an incredible source of knowledge / information, and great resources for connections to reputable breeders. Once you get a pup, they can help you connect with a training group of the appropriate level, which will be extremely helpful to you as a novice trainer.
Regarding started pups / dogs, I would not expect that you will find any in the budget range you have described ($600). Rembember, "started" is a relative term and means different things to different people. I think you would be better off taking any extra money you might spend on a "started" pup / dog, and putting it toward the purchase of good training literature / CD's such as Evan Graham's Smartwork Series. This coupled with support from club members and a training group should put you on the right track.
Write down what your goals and objectives are for a gundog. Go to watch a hunt test as I suggested. Re-visit your list after going to watch a hunt test and re-identify your goals. Once you have done so, start seeking breeders and tell them what you want in a dog, it may just be a companion and hunting partner, it may eventually include running him in hunt tests. Good breeders can often set you up with a breeding that will throw pups with a inclination toward what you are seeking. Seek breeders with bloodlines that have proven field genetics and not just show stock. Do your homework and ask the right questions specific to health clearances of potential sires and dams.
Once you decide on a breeder / breeding, remember that you might have a schedule in mind for your dog, but dog's do not train according to a schedule, they are individuals and develop at their own rate, given their innate potential. Sometime ago, I was presented with an axiom specific to dog training that I feel is a very wise bit of knowledge, "Make haste, slowly", that is don't rush things that should not be rushed. Most dog training programs present their material in a logical sequence. The sequential order and progression might move faster for some dogs than others. Do not skip steps, make it fun and succession based for you and your dog, and train with specific goals in mind. Goals can be re-visited and changed as training successes are gained. Alway re-visit early fundementals with your pup and continue to reinforce and build on them.
Remember that obedience is the root foundation of all dog training, establish yourself as your dog's pack leader, let him know what is expected, and keep those expectations consistent. Do not rush to hunt with him in your first year at the expense of not establishing solid obedience. It takes self discipline to do this, but you will have a dog that others will envy in the longrun. Good luck with your search and training. Let us know how it goes.
Mike Enright
A few suggestions for you based on your post. First, see if there are any active retriever clubs in your immediate area or region. Seek to join a club and go to a scheduled event (hunt test). While at a hunt test, try and observe some dogs at the junior, senior, and master hunter stakes. This will give you a good perspective of what levels of training can be achieved by a retriever and his owner / handler / trainer. Do not be afraid to ask questions of and network with club members. Be up front and tell them you are looking to purchase and train a retriever. You will find that these folks are an incredible source of knowledge / information, and great resources for connections to reputable breeders. Once you get a pup, they can help you connect with a training group of the appropriate level, which will be extremely helpful to you as a novice trainer.
Regarding started pups / dogs, I would not expect that you will find any in the budget range you have described ($600). Rembember, "started" is a relative term and means different things to different people. I think you would be better off taking any extra money you might spend on a "started" pup / dog, and putting it toward the purchase of good training literature / CD's such as Evan Graham's Smartwork Series. This coupled with support from club members and a training group should put you on the right track.
Write down what your goals and objectives are for a gundog. Go to watch a hunt test as I suggested. Re-visit your list after going to watch a hunt test and re-identify your goals. Once you have done so, start seeking breeders and tell them what you want in a dog, it may just be a companion and hunting partner, it may eventually include running him in hunt tests. Good breeders can often set you up with a breeding that will throw pups with a inclination toward what you are seeking. Seek breeders with bloodlines that have proven field genetics and not just show stock. Do your homework and ask the right questions specific to health clearances of potential sires and dams.
Once you decide on a breeder / breeding, remember that you might have a schedule in mind for your dog, but dog's do not train according to a schedule, they are individuals and develop at their own rate, given their innate potential. Sometime ago, I was presented with an axiom specific to dog training that I feel is a very wise bit of knowledge, "Make haste, slowly", that is don't rush things that should not be rushed. Most dog training programs present their material in a logical sequence. The sequential order and progression might move faster for some dogs than others. Do not skip steps, make it fun and succession based for you and your dog, and train with specific goals in mind. Goals can be re-visited and changed as training successes are gained. Alway re-visit early fundementals with your pup and continue to reinforce and build on them.
Remember that obedience is the root foundation of all dog training, establish yourself as your dog's pack leader, let him know what is expected, and keep those expectations consistent. Do not rush to hunt with him in your first year at the expense of not establishing solid obedience. It takes self discipline to do this, but you will have a dog that others will envy in the longrun. Good luck with your search and training. Let us know how it goes.
Mike Enright
10-27-2009, 05:15 PM
#13
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 40
Mike and Phil,
Thanks for the wealth of knowledge in your last posts. I do suspect I will look for a pup that I can raise from "scratch". Going to hunt tests again seems like the thing to do.
I had a web chat with my parents and dog back home last night and managed to make him roll over through skype :-) and this only made it harder to be without a dog.
However, as eager as I am, it is obviously imperative that I not rush into this. Perhaps if I squirrel a bit more money away a more expensive dog may avoid other medical costs in the future.
I'll keep ya'll updated and I'll set myself a tentative goal of having "Duke" (perhaps too over used?) winter of 2010/2011
Thanks for the wealth of knowledge in your last posts. I do suspect I will look for a pup that I can raise from "scratch". Going to hunt tests again seems like the thing to do.
I had a web chat with my parents and dog back home last night and managed to make him roll over through skype :-) and this only made it harder to be without a dog.
However, as eager as I am, it is obviously imperative that I not rush into this. Perhaps if I squirrel a bit more money away a more expensive dog may avoid other medical costs in the future.
I'll keep ya'll updated and I'll set myself a tentative goal of having "Duke" (perhaps too over used?) winter of 2010/2011
10-27-2009, 05:32 PM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,681
Thank you, Mike also brought up some good points and for health issues bring up whatever you can think of.. Hips is a good place to start. Most kennels from good breeders also will give you a health guarantee of sorts. Most will offer a one year, but if you can get it go for a two year at least.. Also most good dog kennels will want to know if there is a problem so that they can avoid having it show up in future breedings..
10-27-2009, 06:53 PM
#15
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 5
Burdbuster,
I constantly train and work with my retriever Wildrose Cayden SH (AKC Senior Hunter). I am presently working with Cayden toward his AKC Master Hunter Title. I guide and he has been worked for the clients of two different guide services, both on waterfowl and on upland birds. Cayden is a proficient gundog on both marked and blind retrieves, water and land work, multiple retrieves, flushing, and tracking. Cayden has great game finding abilities and rare is the crippled bird that is lost.
The clients that I have worked Cayden for, are amazed at how steady he is, despite his obvious high level bird drive. As both Phil and I have mentioned, a proven history of multiple generations of field genetics in any bloodlines you may consider is crucial. Though not foolproof, this is the best indicator for potential success in the area of field performance. This can often be determined by looking at multiple generation pedigrees.
I would be glad to answer any questions you might have if it is within my ability to do so. If not, I can probably point you in the right direction to someone who can help you. Just send me a PM if you have questions, I will do what I can to help you.
Start looking now, while you are saving. You brought up a good point in that money spent now on the breeding of a pup with good health clearances and a guarantee from the breeder, may save both heartache and expensive vet bills down the road.
Also, research some training programs that you can do yourself. Getting the material ahead of time will let you plan and keep the carrot before the horse, so that you maintain your desire to obtain and train a pup.
The amount of joy that I have experienced while hunting throughout my lifetime, has always been greatest when hunting over a gundog I trained.
I have included a photo of myself (left) and Cayden, with a client from a hunt for Canada Geese. This dog just loves his job!!!
Mike Enright -
I constantly train and work with my retriever Wildrose Cayden SH (AKC Senior Hunter). I am presently working with Cayden toward his AKC Master Hunter Title. I guide and he has been worked for the clients of two different guide services, both on waterfowl and on upland birds. Cayden is a proficient gundog on both marked and blind retrieves, water and land work, multiple retrieves, flushing, and tracking. Cayden has great game finding abilities and rare is the crippled bird that is lost.
The clients that I have worked Cayden for, are amazed at how steady he is, despite his obvious high level bird drive. As both Phil and I have mentioned, a proven history of multiple generations of field genetics in any bloodlines you may consider is crucial. Though not foolproof, this is the best indicator for potential success in the area of field performance. This can often be determined by looking at multiple generation pedigrees.
I would be glad to answer any questions you might have if it is within my ability to do so. If not, I can probably point you in the right direction to someone who can help you. Just send me a PM if you have questions, I will do what I can to help you.
Start looking now, while you are saving. You brought up a good point in that money spent now on the breeding of a pup with good health clearances and a guarantee from the breeder, may save both heartache and expensive vet bills down the road.
Also, research some training programs that you can do yourself. Getting the material ahead of time will let you plan and keep the carrot before the horse, so that you maintain your desire to obtain and train a pup.
The amount of joy that I have experienced while hunting throughout my lifetime, has always been greatest when hunting over a gundog I trained.
I have included a photo of myself (left) and Cayden, with a client from a hunt for Canada Geese. This dog just loves his job!!!
Mike Enright -
01-01-2010, 07:50 AM
#16
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 860
Updates?
Personally, I would purchase a pup (7-8 weeks old) at the end of winter as mustad recommends. It gives you just enough time to do yard training, collar conditioning (if used) and gun conditioning before the start of the season. The perfect situation should be yard training to field training to intro to hunting without months long breaks in-between or over train a dog. Sounds funny, but a young dog will quickly shutdown if you spend too much time in training.
A few pointers:
1. Read up on training to get a handle on the terminology so you can understand what dog people/handlers are talking about. When they say 'stake out' or 'table' they mean a tool with a specific configuration. 'Collar' usually means electronic collar, 'barrel' means a stationary barrel, etc.
2. When visiting the kennel, look at the condition of the kennel. Does it look clean? Dogs watered daily? Are they there for the longterm (kennel solidly built, or scrap wood)?
3. Ask to see the parents. Confirmation will tell you alot about how the athletic ability. Are the parents in good condition? Lope or glide when running, trotting? It won't tell anything about their hunting ability but it'll show how long (hours per day, how many years) you will able to hunt. Bad, when hunting after a couple of hours, dog becomes a boot licker. Worse, dog pulls a tendon then you can only hunt with them for a few hours weekly (heartbreaking). If you can, ask to see how the parents hunts. Most kennels will have enough open land + a few birds on hand for training.
4. A second breeding is sometimes better. With a second litter, you can contact owners of the first litter and ask them concerning the kennel and the pups. Any reputable breeder will gladly give you references. A second breeding will usually be very close to the first.
Personally, I would purchase a pup (7-8 weeks old) at the end of winter as mustad recommends. It gives you just enough time to do yard training, collar conditioning (if used) and gun conditioning before the start of the season. The perfect situation should be yard training to field training to intro to hunting without months long breaks in-between or over train a dog. Sounds funny, but a young dog will quickly shutdown if you spend too much time in training.
A few pointers:
1. Read up on training to get a handle on the terminology so you can understand what dog people/handlers are talking about. When they say 'stake out' or 'table' they mean a tool with a specific configuration. 'Collar' usually means electronic collar, 'barrel' means a stationary barrel, etc.
2. When visiting the kennel, look at the condition of the kennel. Does it look clean? Dogs watered daily? Are they there for the longterm (kennel solidly built, or scrap wood)?
3. Ask to see the parents. Confirmation will tell you alot about how the athletic ability. Are the parents in good condition? Lope or glide when running, trotting? It won't tell anything about their hunting ability but it'll show how long (hours per day, how many years) you will able to hunt. Bad, when hunting after a couple of hours, dog becomes a boot licker. Worse, dog pulls a tendon then you can only hunt with them for a few hours weekly (heartbreaking). If you can, ask to see how the parents hunts. Most kennels will have enough open land + a few birds on hand for training.
4. A second breeding is sometimes better. With a second litter, you can contact owners of the first litter and ask them concerning the kennel and the pups. Any reputable breeder will gladly give you references. A second breeding will usually be very close to the first.
