Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
01-02-2007, 04:06 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 1,401
Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
Okay, I really appreciate the help on choosing a rifle scope. I ended up with the Nikon Monarch in 4-12x 40mm with the BDC rectile.
Now I need to decide what my next optical purchase should be. I have some cheap Bushnell 35mm binoculars 5-15x that are horrible for using with eyeglasses. (I got them as a gift) but I don't know if they would count as already owning a pair of binoculars or not.
I will be primarily using whatever optics I purchase in the wide open spaces where 1 mile looks are not uncommon. I have a personal preference for the Nikon brand, but I'm not completely zero'd into them if there are other options out there that are better bang for the buck.
I was looking at the Nikon Spotter XL II, 16-48x 60mm. They seem to be hanging around in the $400 range and www.samplelist.com has a refurbished one for $350. We had a crappy spotting scope growing up and it wasn't really even worth having. Is this something where I should be looking at spending $800+ to get a good one or not get one at all?
I've also been looking at some of the refurbished rangefinders on the samplelist. They have the Nikon Monarch 1200 for $320 refurbished.
Then again, I started thinking that maybe I should just get a good quality set of binoculars instead of either of the above choices.
I could probably pull the trigger on a couple of the above purchases if needed. I would appreciate some input from others though.
Thanks, Nathan
Now I need to decide what my next optical purchase should be. I have some cheap Bushnell 35mm binoculars 5-15x that are horrible for using with eyeglasses. (I got them as a gift) but I don't know if they would count as already owning a pair of binoculars or not.
I will be primarily using whatever optics I purchase in the wide open spaces where 1 mile looks are not uncommon. I have a personal preference for the Nikon brand, but I'm not completely zero'd into them if there are other options out there that are better bang for the buck.
I was looking at the Nikon Spotter XL II, 16-48x 60mm. They seem to be hanging around in the $400 range and www.samplelist.com has a refurbished one for $350. We had a crappy spotting scope growing up and it wasn't really even worth having. Is this something where I should be looking at spending $800+ to get a good one or not get one at all?
I've also been looking at some of the refurbished rangefinders on the samplelist. They have the Nikon Monarch 1200 for $320 refurbished.
Then again, I started thinking that maybe I should just get a good quality set of binoculars instead of either of the above choices.
I could probably pull the trigger on a couple of the above purchases if needed. I would appreciate some input from others though.
Thanks, Nathan
01-02-2007, 08:11 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: MB.
Posts: 2,984
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
I’ve been considering getting a set of binoculars for glassing my field for deer. I have a set of Bushnell Legends 8 x 42 and have worked very well for looking for deer during the night with the full moon however they don’t have the magnification required for picking up details from distance during the day.
I don’t have intentions of purchasing high end optics but have looked at the new Nikon Monarchs 10 x 56 mm and 12 x 56 mm binocs. Wow for the price I find they have what it takes looking at them in the store. Another set that I found very good for the price was the Minox 10 x 52 mm. Talk about clear image but twice the price of the Nikons I mentioned and still half the price of high end binocs. At this time these are the two types I might be considering. Just thought I’d pass on some info for you to look up. Good luck in your shopping...
I don’t have intentions of purchasing high end optics but have looked at the new Nikon Monarchs 10 x 56 mm and 12 x 56 mm binocs. Wow for the price I find they have what it takes looking at them in the store. Another set that I found very good for the price was the Minox 10 x 52 mm. Talk about clear image but twice the price of the Nikons I mentioned and still half the price of high end binocs. At this time these are the two types I might be considering. Just thought I’d pass on some info for you to look up. Good luck in your shopping...
01-03-2007, 08:44 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
Then again, I started thinking that maybe I should just get a good quality set of binoculars instead of either of the above choices.
Below I copy and pasted a reply I left to a post in this forum a little over a month ago. The original question was something along the lines of "What do I get by paying more for binoculars". I hope the information proves somewhat helpful.
There are a variety of issues that separate binoculars in one price range from binoculars in another. For example, assuming roof prism binos, at the $100 price point and under we have bins like the...
Bushnell Powerview
Nikon Sporter I/Buckmaster
Tasco World Class
Bushnell H20
These bins may be waterproof but are more than likely just water repellent. They may also only be "fullycoated or just plain "multicoated" in terms of the lenses. This reduces brightness, contrast, resolution, etc...
At the $200 price point we have binoculars like the....
Bushnell Excursion
Eagle Optics Denali
Pentax DCF-HS
These binoculars have at least multicoated optics and have phase-coated prisms. This makes them siginficantly brighter with a sharper image. Some models might also have a slightly wider field of view. The glasses may also be a bit lighter overall. Durability will, ofcourse, increase slightly as you pay more money within product lines from the same company.
At the $300 price point you start getting into the bins that give you great performance for the price. Bins included in this price range include....
Nikon Monarch
Bushnell Legend
Wind River Cascade and Olympic
Pentax DCF-HR II
Cabelas XTs
Minox BD BR or BD BL
These binoculars are all fully multicoated, phase coated, waterproof roof prism binos that offer excellent image quality with two or three characteristics that separate them from the $1000+ models
From $400-$800 you do not really see that much of a difference in terms of quality or design. These binoculars are a smidge better in terms of one or two characteristics than the $300 models but, IMO, are not worththe doubling in costunless you are trying to get the absolute highest quality instrument within that particular budget.Binoculars in this range include....
Pentax DCF-SP
Minox HG
Kahles
Bushnell Discoverer (original price)
Between $900 and $1000 you havea tier of binoculars that is possibly the best from their respective company but still falls just a bit short of the absolute best roof prisms available for one reason or another optically or mechanically. These binoculars would include.....
Bushnell Elite
Meopta Meostar
Zeiss Conquest
Between $1000 and $1300 you have some of the best roof prism glasses ever produced. At one time they were the premier roof prism glasses on the market however subsequent improvements in prism coatings or a reduction in weight due to construction materials has bumped them just a bit from the "latest and greatest" status. Without comparing them extensively to their slightly more expensive counterparts you would never know that there could be a better glass out there. These bins typically have full life time warranties, close to the latest advances in coatings and excellent build quality. The quality control at this price point is also much better than that of the bins in the $300-$800 price range. Bins in this range would include.....
Leica Trinovids
Swarovski SLCs
Nikon Premier LXLs
Lastly we have the most expensive roof prisms on the market...$1300+. These three binocular lines represent the highest quality level and latest technological advances in just about every area. There is currently some discussion on whether or not they are actually "better" than the models just mentioned so take it with a grain of salt. Bins in this range include....
Swarovski EL
Leica Ultravid
Zeiss FL.
To summarize, you pay more for
1. Better durability
2. Better coatings on the prism and lenses
3. Waterproofing
4. Warranty
5. Optical characterisitcs such as a wider field of view, closer focus, less edge distortion, etc...
Hope this proves helpful.
Bushnell Powerview
Nikon Sporter I/Buckmaster
Tasco World Class
Bushnell H20
These bins may be waterproof but are more than likely just water repellent. They may also only be "fullycoated or just plain "multicoated" in terms of the lenses. This reduces brightness, contrast, resolution, etc...
At the $200 price point we have binoculars like the....
Bushnell Excursion
Eagle Optics Denali
Pentax DCF-HS
These binoculars have at least multicoated optics and have phase-coated prisms. This makes them siginficantly brighter with a sharper image. Some models might also have a slightly wider field of view. The glasses may also be a bit lighter overall. Durability will, ofcourse, increase slightly as you pay more money within product lines from the same company.
At the $300 price point you start getting into the bins that give you great performance for the price. Bins included in this price range include....
Nikon Monarch
Bushnell Legend
Wind River Cascade and Olympic
Pentax DCF-HR II
Cabelas XTs
Minox BD BR or BD BL
These binoculars are all fully multicoated, phase coated, waterproof roof prism binos that offer excellent image quality with two or three characteristics that separate them from the $1000+ models
From $400-$800 you do not really see that much of a difference in terms of quality or design. These binoculars are a smidge better in terms of one or two characteristics than the $300 models but, IMO, are not worththe doubling in costunless you are trying to get the absolute highest quality instrument within that particular budget.Binoculars in this range include....
Pentax DCF-SP
Minox HG
Kahles
Bushnell Discoverer (original price)
Between $900 and $1000 you havea tier of binoculars that is possibly the best from their respective company but still falls just a bit short of the absolute best roof prisms available for one reason or another optically or mechanically. These binoculars would include.....
Bushnell Elite
Meopta Meostar
Zeiss Conquest
Between $1000 and $1300 you have some of the best roof prism glasses ever produced. At one time they were the premier roof prism glasses on the market however subsequent improvements in prism coatings or a reduction in weight due to construction materials has bumped them just a bit from the "latest and greatest" status. Without comparing them extensively to their slightly more expensive counterparts you would never know that there could be a better glass out there. These bins typically have full life time warranties, close to the latest advances in coatings and excellent build quality. The quality control at this price point is also much better than that of the bins in the $300-$800 price range. Bins in this range would include.....
Leica Trinovids
Swarovski SLCs
Nikon Premier LXLs
Lastly we have the most expensive roof prisms on the market...$1300+. These three binocular lines represent the highest quality level and latest technological advances in just about every area. There is currently some discussion on whether or not they are actually "better" than the models just mentioned so take it with a grain of salt. Bins in this range include....
Swarovski EL
Leica Ultravid
Zeiss FL.
To summarize, you pay more for
1. Better durability
2. Better coatings on the prism and lenses
3. Waterproofing
4. Warranty
5. Optical characterisitcs such as a wider field of view, closer focus, less edge distortion, etc...
Hope this proves helpful.
01-03-2007, 09:45 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 1,401
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
ORIGINAL: PABowhntr
In all honesty, I think this is your best bet. When you compare this piece of optics equipment to the others you listed I think you can probably make the argument that you could use them quite a bit more than all of the others combined. Their size and overall ease of use are probably the main reasons. With that thought in mind I would recommend upgrading your bins. Considering the distances you are looking at using them at I would also probably suggest a good pair of 10x42s. That particular configuration combines good resolution levels for distance glassing without sacrificing portability.
In all honesty, I think this is your best bet. When you compare this piece of optics equipment to the others you listed I think you can probably make the argument that you could use them quite a bit more than all of the others combined. Their size and overall ease of use are probably the main reasons. With that thought in mind I would recommend upgrading your bins. Considering the distances you are looking at using them at I would also probably suggest a good pair of 10x42s. That particular configuration combines good resolution levels for distance glassing without sacrificing portability.
Alot of the hunting that I am used to involves sitting on a ridgetop and glassing a valley maybe 1 mile wide or more and even looking at the draws on the other side of it. Sometimes you are able to do this by parking 100 yards behind the edge of the ridge from a road and walking up to the edge and setting up shop and looking,and sometimes you are back in the boonies several miles on foot. The 10x would allow you to see a deer at that distance but you would have a hard time deciding whether it was a large buck or not. If I was able to look at a deer a mile or more away and decide whether it was worth going after, a good spotting scope might pay for itself in saving me the time and effort and frustration of wasting a half a day going after a deer that ends up not being one that I want to shoot.
The 16-48x Nikon spotter would be be great for that type of thing for the times you were able to look without having to pack it in a mile. IF it worked. I'm just worried that it might be like the Busnell binoculars and for only $400 to expect it to go up to 48x zoom with a 60mm optic and keeping a clear view may be too much. The Nikon fieldscopesat 82mm run up to $1,000 pretty quick at a pretty much the same magnification so that leads me to believe that the cheaper Nikon Spotter is probably not very good.
I agree that a good pair of binoculars probably needs to make their way into my gear, as I really don't like the ones I have, but I'm trying to figure out if the spotter would be worth it or not. If the $400 spotter isn't going to be any good, I probably won't be able to bring myself to step up to the $1k+ I would need to get to a good one.
Thanks for the input andreading through my ramblings. I am probably remembering the hunting from my youth with rose colored glasses, but I was able to go do some hunting with my dad off and on over the last 5 or 6 years and I really started to think that some quality gear would really make a difference. We always just had whatever was cheapest and although we usually ended up filling our tags we never were able to really know what the quality of the animal we were going after was, just that it was a deer or elk with or without horns pretty much. This time around I'm going to be trying to locate animals that will be worthy of putting up on the wall.
01-04-2007, 07:58 AM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
You are definitely putting alot of thought into this and I commend you for it. One thing you are not considering with a spotter though, regardless of price/model, is how truly effective it is going to be at glassing at the distances you mentioned. Two reasons come to mind.
One, glassing generally involves scanning wide areas in search of game, etc... The Spotter in question comes with a zoom eyepiece. Zoom eyepieces are notorious for having extremely restricted fields of view. This is definitely going to work against youin terms of your intended use.
In addition to this you also have to consider something called chromatic aberration. This is more commonly referred to as color fringing and results from the different colors in the light spectrum not coming to the same point of focus. It is most commonly seen in roof prism binoculars and spotting scopes (like the XL). At higher magnifications it is more prominent and tends to "muddy" the image resulting in a loss of detail. For an example of it, look at some high contrast object like a telephone pole against a blue or white sky and notice the red or yellow fringe around the object especially along the edges of the image.
The only optics that rectify this issue utilize special glass termed "ED" or "FL" which, by composition, helps to focus all colors of the spectrum to the same point of focus. In terms of a spotter the least expensive model utilizing this that I am aware of is the Pentax 65 mm ED. The scope body alone costs around $420 and an accompanying wide angle ED eyepiece costs around $300.
Second, you have environmental conditions to deal with. Heat shimmer is probably the biggest culprit for inhibiting any optics ability to detect detail at greater distances.
For $400, I would still suggest a good quality 10x42. 10x is probably the practical limit for handheld viewing. If you would buy some type of monopod or finnstick device to steady the binoculars further then you could get away with a 12x42 or higher possibly but then you usually run into issues with overall portability due to size and weight.
Hope this proves helpful.
One, glassing generally involves scanning wide areas in search of game, etc... The Spotter in question comes with a zoom eyepiece. Zoom eyepieces are notorious for having extremely restricted fields of view. This is definitely going to work against youin terms of your intended use.
In addition to this you also have to consider something called chromatic aberration. This is more commonly referred to as color fringing and results from the different colors in the light spectrum not coming to the same point of focus. It is most commonly seen in roof prism binoculars and spotting scopes (like the XL). At higher magnifications it is more prominent and tends to "muddy" the image resulting in a loss of detail. For an example of it, look at some high contrast object like a telephone pole against a blue or white sky and notice the red or yellow fringe around the object especially along the edges of the image.
The only optics that rectify this issue utilize special glass termed "ED" or "FL" which, by composition, helps to focus all colors of the spectrum to the same point of focus. In terms of a spotter the least expensive model utilizing this that I am aware of is the Pentax 65 mm ED. The scope body alone costs around $420 and an accompanying wide angle ED eyepiece costs around $300.
Second, you have environmental conditions to deal with. Heat shimmer is probably the biggest culprit for inhibiting any optics ability to detect detail at greater distances.
For $400, I would still suggest a good quality 10x42. 10x is probably the practical limit for handheld viewing. If you would buy some type of monopod or finnstick device to steady the binoculars further then you could get away with a 12x42 or higher possibly but then you usually run into issues with overall portability due to size and weight.
Hope this proves helpful.
01-04-2007, 08:30 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 1,401
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
So the short answer is - A $400 spotting scope is not going to accomplish what I'm wanting and even a $1,000 scope could easily fall short if it was a hot day outside. ? [&:]
I was researching the under $500 scopes pretty hard yesterday and the Bushnell Spacemaster seemed like it was the best bang for your buck ($300ish for a 15-45x), but they only tested them out to 300 yards and said that the mirage was too bad to do any objective testing at 600 and 1,000 yards. I guess in the late fall in Montana I shouldn't have problems with a heat wave though.
As far as intended use, I think the way to do it would be to use the 10x binoculars to do the glassing and find the animals, and then use the spotting scope to figure out more details about the animals.
I've never owned a good pair of binoculars before. We always just had some variable power ones that were purchased for $50 at the local sporting goods store. I wonder how much nicer a good pair of binoculars will be. Reading on the Nikon Monarch binoculars they seem like they would be about the right ones for me. At the top of themedium price models before you make the huge jump up to the really nice ones.
Are good binoculars like good lenses? On Nikon Cameras you can spend $$ on a lens and be confident that if you don't end up using it or liking it as much as you thought you can sell it used on ebay quickly for just a small % loss. They say that "good glass" holds it's value really well.
Most of the stuff I'm researching right now I won't be using until October so I'm wondering if things are going to go up in price or down in price before then. Glass doesn't get cheaper, but electronics do so the Rangefinder is probably the last item on my purchase list as far as my time line goes.
Thanks again for the input!
I was researching the under $500 scopes pretty hard yesterday and the Bushnell Spacemaster seemed like it was the best bang for your buck ($300ish for a 15-45x), but they only tested them out to 300 yards and said that the mirage was too bad to do any objective testing at 600 and 1,000 yards. I guess in the late fall in Montana I shouldn't have problems with a heat wave though.
As far as intended use, I think the way to do it would be to use the 10x binoculars to do the glassing and find the animals, and then use the spotting scope to figure out more details about the animals.
I've never owned a good pair of binoculars before. We always just had some variable power ones that were purchased for $50 at the local sporting goods store. I wonder how much nicer a good pair of binoculars will be. Reading on the Nikon Monarch binoculars they seem like they would be about the right ones for me. At the top of themedium price models before you make the huge jump up to the really nice ones.
Are good binoculars like good lenses? On Nikon Cameras you can spend $$ on a lens and be confident that if you don't end up using it or liking it as much as you thought you can sell it used on ebay quickly for just a small % loss. They say that "good glass" holds it's value really well.
Most of the stuff I'm researching right now I won't be using until October so I'm wondering if things are going to go up in price or down in price before then. Glass doesn't get cheaper, but electronics do so the Rangefinder is probably the last item on my purchase list as far as my time line goes.
Thanks again for the input!
01-04-2007, 12:28 PM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
So the short answer is - A $400 spotting scope is not going to accomplish what I'm wanting and even a $1,000 scope could easily fall short if it was a hot day outside. ?
As far as intended use, I think the way to do it would be to use the 10x binoculars to do the glassing and find the animals, and then use the spotting scope to figure out more details about the animals.
The Monarchs are excellent glass for the price. From personal experience I think the $300-$400 price pointin binocularsreally is where you get the most performance for your $. Beyond that you really start paying for moderate to small improvements in either handling or optical performance.
Are good binoculars like good lenses? On Nikon Cameras you can spend $$ on a lens and be confident that if you don't end up using it or liking it as much as you thought you can sell it used on ebay quickly for just a small % loss. They say that "good glass" holds it's value really well.
Most of the stuff I'm researching right now I won't be using until October so I'm wondering if things are going to go up in price or down in price before then. Glass doesn't get cheaper
Glad I could help.
01-05-2007, 12:04 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
From which perspective..optics or build quality?
Optically the two are very similar overall. The Action EX 8x40s have a significantly wider field of view but more edge distortion. They are physically larger and heavier as well. Price difference is significant though with the Monarch 8x42s costing twice as much.
Optically the two are very similar overall. The Action EX 8x40s have a significantly wider field of view but more edge distortion. They are physically larger and heavier as well. Price difference is significant though with the Monarch 8x42s costing twice as much.
01-05-2007, 12:57 PM
#10
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seymour IN
Posts: 597
RE: Help me decide on my next optic purchase!
PAbowhunter,
I am learning disabled in this. I have been looking at the Monarch 12x42. I hate not being about to tell what something is 150-200 yards away. I can see its a buck through my cheap o's but I want to be able to count the points and see how long the beard is on the turkey. I saw the Action Extreme 12x50 for 192 Monarch for 329. SIze and weight I am not really worried about. I dont carry a lot with me or have to walk a long way.
Thanks
I am learning disabled in this. I have been looking at the Monarch 12x42. I hate not being about to tell what something is 150-200 yards away. I can see its a buck through my cheap o's but I want to be able to count the points and see how long the beard is on the turkey. I saw the Action Extreme 12x50 for 192 Monarch for 329. SIze and weight I am not really worried about. I dont carry a lot with me or have to walk a long way.
Thanks