how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
01-12-2005, 03:26 PM
#111
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,177
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
Whitetail Genetics
Genetics and Antlers of White-tailed Deer
The role of genetics in antler development is one of the most misunderstood areas of deer management. Many of the public think that genetics and inbreeding are the reasons that big bucks of yesteryear are no longer common place. We do know that genetics is an extremely important component of the deer management formula. However, genetics is just one of the factors that governs antler development. Age, nutrition, disease, and injury are often more important contributors to a buck's antlers than is genetics.
To understand the role that genetics plays in antler development it is first necessary to understand the contributions other factors make to a buck's antlers. Most importantly, the animal has to have adequate nutrition. Without adequate nutrition a buck with the genetic background to become the world record white-tailed buck might be less than average. An example of the importance of nutrition was demonstrated by a nine year-old buck that was acquired for breeding in the Mississippi State deer research facility. When acquired the buck had been in a private deer facility in Missouri and had been fed a mostly corn diet the previous year. It should be noted that corn is a very poor quality food for deer except during periods of high-energy drain during cold periods of the year. It is high in carbohydrates but low in protein (about 8 percent). On the corn diet, the animal grew an 8 point rack, had a 17 inch inside spread, 18 inch long main beams, and a gross Boone and Crockett score of about 115. After being in the Mississippi State pens for one year on a normal 16% protein ration, the animal's antlers increased to 21 points, a 27.5 inch inside spread, 28 inch main beams, and a gross Boone and Crockett score of 210.
Age can also effect a buck's antlers dramatically. White-tailed deer do not achieve maturity until they are 5 to 8 years of age. Studies at Mississippi State have demonstrated the average buck achieves only about 10 percent of his potential antler development by age 1.5 years (when he completes his first set of antlers as an 18-month-old buck). We also have been able to demonstrate that there is little relationship between the first year antlers and the antler development a buck will have when he reaches the mature age classes of 5 years or older. This means a spike-antlered buck has a good chance of becoming a trophy-quality adult buck. By the time a buck has completed his second set of antlers he still has achieved only 25-35 percent of his potential antler development. At 3 years of age (few bucks live longer than this in Mississippi because of hunting pressure), a buck still only has achieved about 50 percent of his potential antler quality. It is not until 5 years of age that most bucks approach their full antler potential, and often, antlers don't reach their maximum size until 7 or 8 years of age (for captive animals raised under ideal conditions). Probably less than 1 out of 5,000 bucks would survive to the 6-year-old age class with the hunting pressure now across most of Mississippi. It is no wonder we don't see the quality of bucks that existed "back in the good old days," when hunting pressure was very low compared to today.
Another feature that may develop with age is an often-dramatic change in the conformation of a buck's antlers. Stories abound in sporting magazines about how hunters have pursued the same buck from a young age until they developed into full maturity. It is probably the exception, however, rather than the rule that a hunter could tell he was hunting the same buck from one year to the next. In watching our captive deer develop, a high percentage will experience significant antler conformation changes by the time they reach the older age classes and bear little if any resemblance to what their antlers looked like as 1, 2, or 3 year-olds. It is also the older age class bucks that begin to develop atypical points. A buck that has a perfectly symmetrical 8 point, as a three year-old, can conceivably have 16 or more points by age 6 years. However, some bucks develop their antler conformation at a relatively young age, and it certainly is not unusual for an 8 point yearling buck to remain an 8 point when mature.
Two other factors that effect a buck's antler conformation are injury and disease. Injury to a buck's antler while they are still in the velvet will often result in asymmetrical antlers with odd points, double main beams, or other abnormal characteristics. Generally, antler injuries of this type do not result in antler abnormalities the second and following years unless they occur near the base of the growing antler or to the skull. If the injury is near the base of the antler, the injury can result in abnormal development in subsequent years as well as the present year. Injury to other parts of the skeleton can also result in abnormal antler growth during subsequent years. It is well documented that skeletal injury to a hind leg will result in the opposite antler being malformed in the next and in subsequent antler growth periods. Injury to a front leg often results in the antler on the same side of the body being malformed.
Disease also can cause antler growth to be abnormal. The bluetongue and hemorrhagic diseases often occur during late summer when antlers are growing and cause antler growth to cease at that time. Bucks to which this occurs often have blackened, pithy antler tips for that year. Disease can also permanently restrict potential antler development. Nutritional and hemorrhagic can damage the digestive tract and prevent an animal from ever obtaining its optimum body condition and antler development.
Given proper nutrition, age and no injuries or debilitating diseases, it is genetics that determine the final development of a buck's antlers! Two deer can be raised together to 7 years of age under optimum nutrition and conditions. One may become a Boone and Crockett deer while the other may only develop into a mediocre 6 or 8 point deer. In this case, the genetic makeup Mother Nature gave them would determine the antler development. We know there are some geographical areas that consistently produce better quality antlers than others. We also know that, with the exception of antler injury, it is genetics that determines whether a buck will have typical or atypical antlers. Our research has shown that a buck does not always transmit his antler qualities to his offspring. For example, a buck with very poor antler qualities may produce offspring with very good antler qualities and vice versa. This means there is very little that can be done to practically manage genetics in a wild deer population because we cannot determine which deer will pass the superior genes to its offspring. Additionally, even if we could select a "superior" buck, 50 percent of the offspring's genetic information is supplied by the doe, and there is no way to identify the superior doe! Research at Mississippi State has demonstrated doe's are equally, or more important, than bucks to determining the offspring's antler qualities. This does not mean that we will not manage genetics of the white-tailed deer in the future. In fact, it is probable that we will do so through genetic introduction. However, we first need to better understand through research, such as that being conducted by Mississippi State, what is prudent and wise to do when considering manipulation of genetics in wild populations.
Genetics and Antlers of White-tailed Deer
The role of genetics in antler development is one of the most misunderstood areas of deer management. Many of the public think that genetics and inbreeding are the reasons that big bucks of yesteryear are no longer common place. We do know that genetics is an extremely important component of the deer management formula. However, genetics is just one of the factors that governs antler development. Age, nutrition, disease, and injury are often more important contributors to a buck's antlers than is genetics.
To understand the role that genetics plays in antler development it is first necessary to understand the contributions other factors make to a buck's antlers. Most importantly, the animal has to have adequate nutrition. Without adequate nutrition a buck with the genetic background to become the world record white-tailed buck might be less than average. An example of the importance of nutrition was demonstrated by a nine year-old buck that was acquired for breeding in the Mississippi State deer research facility. When acquired the buck had been in a private deer facility in Missouri and had been fed a mostly corn diet the previous year. It should be noted that corn is a very poor quality food for deer except during periods of high-energy drain during cold periods of the year. It is high in carbohydrates but low in protein (about 8 percent). On the corn diet, the animal grew an 8 point rack, had a 17 inch inside spread, 18 inch long main beams, and a gross Boone and Crockett score of about 115. After being in the Mississippi State pens for one year on a normal 16% protein ration, the animal's antlers increased to 21 points, a 27.5 inch inside spread, 28 inch main beams, and a gross Boone and Crockett score of 210.
Age can also effect a buck's antlers dramatically. White-tailed deer do not achieve maturity until they are 5 to 8 years of age. Studies at Mississippi State have demonstrated the average buck achieves only about 10 percent of his potential antler development by age 1.5 years (when he completes his first set of antlers as an 18-month-old buck). We also have been able to demonstrate that there is little relationship between the first year antlers and the antler development a buck will have when he reaches the mature age classes of 5 years or older. This means a spike-antlered buck has a good chance of becoming a trophy-quality adult buck. By the time a buck has completed his second set of antlers he still has achieved only 25-35 percent of his potential antler development. At 3 years of age (few bucks live longer than this in Mississippi because of hunting pressure), a buck still only has achieved about 50 percent of his potential antler quality. It is not until 5 years of age that most bucks approach their full antler potential, and often, antlers don't reach their maximum size until 7 or 8 years of age (for captive animals raised under ideal conditions). Probably less than 1 out of 5,000 bucks would survive to the 6-year-old age class with the hunting pressure now across most of Mississippi. It is no wonder we don't see the quality of bucks that existed "back in the good old days," when hunting pressure was very low compared to today.
Another feature that may develop with age is an often-dramatic change in the conformation of a buck's antlers. Stories abound in sporting magazines about how hunters have pursued the same buck from a young age until they developed into full maturity. It is probably the exception, however, rather than the rule that a hunter could tell he was hunting the same buck from one year to the next. In watching our captive deer develop, a high percentage will experience significant antler conformation changes by the time they reach the older age classes and bear little if any resemblance to what their antlers looked like as 1, 2, or 3 year-olds. It is also the older age class bucks that begin to develop atypical points. A buck that has a perfectly symmetrical 8 point, as a three year-old, can conceivably have 16 or more points by age 6 years. However, some bucks develop their antler conformation at a relatively young age, and it certainly is not unusual for an 8 point yearling buck to remain an 8 point when mature.
Two other factors that effect a buck's antler conformation are injury and disease. Injury to a buck's antler while they are still in the velvet will often result in asymmetrical antlers with odd points, double main beams, or other abnormal characteristics. Generally, antler injuries of this type do not result in antler abnormalities the second and following years unless they occur near the base of the growing antler or to the skull. If the injury is near the base of the antler, the injury can result in abnormal development in subsequent years as well as the present year. Injury to other parts of the skeleton can also result in abnormal antler growth during subsequent years. It is well documented that skeletal injury to a hind leg will result in the opposite antler being malformed in the next and in subsequent antler growth periods. Injury to a front leg often results in the antler on the same side of the body being malformed.
Disease also can cause antler growth to be abnormal. The bluetongue and hemorrhagic diseases often occur during late summer when antlers are growing and cause antler growth to cease at that time. Bucks to which this occurs often have blackened, pithy antler tips for that year. Disease can also permanently restrict potential antler development. Nutritional and hemorrhagic can damage the digestive tract and prevent an animal from ever obtaining its optimum body condition and antler development.
Given proper nutrition, age and no injuries or debilitating diseases, it is genetics that determine the final development of a buck's antlers! Two deer can be raised together to 7 years of age under optimum nutrition and conditions. One may become a Boone and Crockett deer while the other may only develop into a mediocre 6 or 8 point deer. In this case, the genetic makeup Mother Nature gave them would determine the antler development. We know there are some geographical areas that consistently produce better quality antlers than others. We also know that, with the exception of antler injury, it is genetics that determines whether a buck will have typical or atypical antlers. Our research has shown that a buck does not always transmit his antler qualities to his offspring. For example, a buck with very poor antler qualities may produce offspring with very good antler qualities and vice versa. This means there is very little that can be done to practically manage genetics in a wild deer population because we cannot determine which deer will pass the superior genes to its offspring. Additionally, even if we could select a "superior" buck, 50 percent of the offspring's genetic information is supplied by the doe, and there is no way to identify the superior doe! Research at Mississippi State has demonstrated doe's are equally, or more important, than bucks to determining the offspring's antler qualities. This does not mean that we will not manage genetics of the white-tailed deer in the future. In fact, it is probable that we will do so through genetic introduction. However, we first need to better understand through research, such as that being conducted by Mississippi State, what is prudent and wise to do when considering manipulation of genetics in wild populations.
01-12-2005, 03:49 PM
#113
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
Studies at Mississippi State have demonstrated the average buck achieves only about 10 percent of his potential antler development by age 1.5 years (when he completes his first set of antlers as an 18-month-old buck). We also have been able to demonstrate that there is little relationship between the first year antlers and the antler development a buck will have when he reaches the mature age classes of 5 years or older. This means a spike-antlered buck has a good chance of becoming a trophy-quality adult buck.
01-12-2005, 03:54 PM
#114
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 491
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
tudies show a buck doesnt reach its full potential until 3.5 to 5.5 and that a 1.5 spike can have equal or better genes than some 1.5 8 points.
While it is true that the occassional spike may surpass a 1.5 ,8 pt. at maturuity , you can't produce one study that shows that the average spike will equal or surpass the avg. 1.5 8 pt. When we are harvesting 85% of our 2.5 buck, that means very few if any buck live to maturity in PA. That ,in turn means the rate at which a buck develops a big rack is as important as the genetics for developing a large rack at maturity.
The anterled buck study showed that the avgerage 2.5+ buck in PA was 7 points. That means many hunters in PA that harvest a 2.5+ buck won't even realize they harvested a 2.5+ deer and will not attribute it to the effects of AR. That in itself explains why a significant number of hunters oppose the continuation of AR. It also explains why AR was repealed in WMU 118 in MI after 4 years!
01-12-2005, 04:06 PM
#115
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
Hey DD, Congrats bud! Yer now a nontypical! 500 posts! See, ya gotta be around awhile to grow the big rack
dont need to. we just need to understand that none can reach their potential if they get snuffed as adolescents.
Only the uneducated ones
Guess it depends on your definition of significant is.....even in the face of a vast majority I guess the minority could still be considered significant by some.
In the wisdom of old slick Willie, I guess it gets back to what your definition of "is" is
While it is true that the occassional spike may surpass a 1.5 ,8 pt. at maturuity , you can't produce one study that shows that the average spike will equal or surpass the avg. 1.5 8 pt.
That means many hunters in PA that harvest a 2.5+ buck won't even realize they harvested a 2.5+ deer and will not attribute it to the effects of AR.
That in itself explains why a significant number of hunters oppose the continuation of AR.
In the wisdom of old slick Willie, I guess it gets back to what your definition of "is" is
01-12-2005, 05:15 PM
#116
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,177
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
ok dd then how do you know anything about the genetics of the deer in your area if you are killing 85% of the juvenile animals? you dont. and also you have to have good genes in your does which like the study states consists of 50% of the genetic makeup for the offspring. and since pa hunters are not allowing the bucks to mature you wont see this. the management people in your state know what bthey are doing cause their studies are based on mature animals not your 1.5 year old trophy. the simple genetic code for whitetails comes from equal animals. you need good genes in the doe and good genes in the buck to produce a genetically superior offspring. and since you cant tell what does have good genetics then you have to look at your bucks in your area but if your shooting juveniles then you will never see the genetically dominant buck. and also rack size doesnt always mean it is genetically dominant for example take your piebald deer or albino deer. there has been big albino and piebald bucks killed but they are far from genetically dominant the gene that cause these traits is recessive. if an albino breeds with a normal and that normal does not carry the albino gene then guess what? no albino. but the offsprin will be heterozygous animals. meaning they now carry the gene but dont display the visual appearance. now if that hetero offspring breads back to the albino then you will produce albino. therefore those genes are not at all dominant. if it was a dominant gene then an albino or piedball bred to a normal would produce albino or piedball. but we have all seen pictures of big albino and piedball bucks killed. so explain from a genetic standpoint of rack size. the most important thing needed for rack growth is nutrition. now of course genetics are needed but nutrition is the deciding factor whether the animal is going to have a big rack or not. and since genetics only play a small part of rack growth thats the only way we can visually make a guess to which bucks are dominant. so with that being said dont you think its smarter to let the bucks mature to see their best potential. otherwise if your not then all this genetic and rack size talk shouldnt matter and this post shouldnt carry on back and fourth like it is. im just giving you info from my personal experiences from the deer i manage and watch and hunt from my land and yes 2k acres is small scale but the things im seeing and doing would apply over large scale as well if the same things were done. im not putting out attractants or rack builders or food plots or none of that crap. the deer are there eating whats there and living like they have for years and all im doing is managing the herd and the results are awesome. but too many people want to shoot a small buck over a doe and argue about shooting button bucks and spikes and thats fine but thats why you wont be seeing good mature animals regurally.
01-12-2005, 05:47 PM
#119
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 491
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
ok dd then how do you know anything about the genetics of the deer in your area if you are killing 85% of the juvenile animals? you dont.
so explain from a genetic standpoint of rack size. the most important thing needed for rack growth is nutrition. now of course genetics are needed but nutrition is the deciding factor whether the animal is going to have a big rack or not
does definitely play a role in the genetics of the herd . But, harvesting more adult doe insures that the entire adult doe herd will be replaced in just 3 years ,which accelerates the rate of genetic change in the herd.
01-12-2005, 06:01 PM
#120
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: how many won't hunt PA again bc/ of ar's?
does definitely play a role in the genetics of the herd . But, harvesting more adult doe insures that the entire adult doe herd will be replaced in just 3 years ,which accelerates the rate of genetic change in the herd
just asked my 12 year old, he understood it.