Pa Trophy Man

DD, the point im trying to make is the deer to be fully mature before breeding. Its the same thing with people or any other animal, they are capable of reproducing not long after they are born but but breeding at a young age they are more apt to birth defects, lower birth weights, and so on... Your right, there still are some bucks that make it to maturity without the ARs but its going to be less than if we keep them in place. Its really stacking the odds in our favor that better genes will be passed if we keep them because the bucks will be 2.5 now and will really be begining to display their true potential putting them at the top of the pecking order. You say that it only adds 1, 2.5+ per 5sq,(i'm not arguing that; sounds bevlievable based on the hunting in my area) that makes for better odds that, that one extra buck will breed rather than a smaller weaker deer. The more mature buck around the less chance a smaller buck will be able to breed.

deaddeer

There are absolutely no studies that show breeding by 1.5 buck causes the problems you claim it does. The 1.5 bucks have been breeding PA doe for many years and the problem is that the herd has been too productive and recruitment has been higher than the harvests.

Because we are harvesting the best buck in each age class ,it is more likely that the bucks that remain to become dominant breeders ,will have inferior genes for antler production compared to an 8 pt. 1.5 buck.

Pa Trophy Man

Just because you may harvest a big buck the first week of rifle season, or the last day, or during flintlock season doesn't mean that very same buck didnt breed with 10 or even 20 does during Novemeber. So lets say we have got that one extra 2.5+ yr old buck per the 5 sq miles (the one brought about the AR). He is bigger, stronger, heavier than just about all other 1.5yr old buck and other smaller weaker 2.5+ buck in the area. He establishes himself, through various fights and becomes the dominant buck in the general area. Lets say during the month of November around he breeds with 10 doe in the area. But rifle season rolls around and somebody whacks him opening morning, he has still served his purpose as far as passing on good genes and providing a wall hanger for a hunter. The doe were still bred making for more deer and he passed on his genes for growing a better rack. So next year you have got (lets be conservative 5 buck fawns, with good genes to pass around). If given enough time its just going to snowball from there. ARs aren't going to produce instant results like people think; its most likely going to take 10 years before you see a huge difference, but time doesn't seem to be something the majority of Pa hunters are willing to commit to. I don't see how anybody could be agaisnt this, it still will make for the numbers of deer -which it seems thats what most are after; and will still make for better bucks? So why can't we all just get along??

deaddeer

That very same buck could have been whacked by a car in Sept. or killed by an archer the first week of OCT ,before he bred a single doe.

AR has been in effect for over 10 years in Miss. and the result is that they are harvesting smaller buck in the areas with the best habitat. There hasn't been one state where AR has produced bigger 2.5+ buck after 10 years of AR and there is nothing you can produce to show I am wrong. AR has been repealed in more states that hwere it currently exists today because it has failed to produce the predicted results.

Pa Trophy Man

I don't need pages of deer studies to prove it. A simple understanding of biology can prove it. Its pure and simply with any animal, your genetic traits are passed on by your parents. With the stronger, healthier deer breeding (which TYPICALLY have bigger racks which helps them gain dominance over the smaller weaker ones) they will produce healthier fawns and healthier fawns make for a healthier herd. You say i have no way to prove it( this isn't pertaining to whitetails but an excellent example) My family has been breeding labs for a long time, Say we have a male and female and both have hip dysplasia (a common disease among dogs) which slowy weakens them and causes them tremedous amounts of pain in their joints. But we go ahead and allow them to breed while they are still able- I've just automatically increased my chances of having a litter of pups with the same affliction. The point behind antler strictions isnt just to make bigger racks, they are simply a by product for hunters. It is to weed out bad genes somewhat like natural selection. Allowing only the biggest, strongest, and fastest to survive. Poor gentic traits take time to manifest themselves in most cases, and normally aren't evident until an animal nears maturity. So we let them live an extra year; increasing the odds the bigger and healthier bucks are going to breed because they have had time to help them grow the tools to get to the top of the pecking order.

Theres always a chance of your dominant buck being taken out by a car, or archer whatever...But if all the deer in the area posses good genes it isnt much going to matter; as another good buck can take his place as breeder (but in order for that to happen; we need to be willing to wait). As for things not working out in Missippi, it is most likely due to people not wanting to follow them, illegally killing protected deer...In addition most of the deer killed in Mississippi were probably healthy 1.5yr old bucks, making them legal by antler restrictions but not as large as a 2.5yr old would be. Its just to bad the majority can't seem to understand that, much like goes on in Pa. A deer with an extra year of experience is going to become harder to kill than a 1.5yr old inexperienced buck---> Again most dont seem to understand that. ARs will never produce the intended results because there is no state that follows them religously. They are going to make the hunting harder; but well worth it (at least to me...when im putting my hands on a pope and young rack).

deaddeer

If we wanted the biggest and best buck to do the breeding , we would protect all bucks with 6 pts. or more and harvest the rest. That is the way to promote dominant breeding and insure that the bucks with the best genes breed the most doe.

Do youself a favor and read the studies from Miss. They were comparing the rack size of 2.5+ buck after AR with the rack size of 2.5+ buck prior to AR and the rack sizes decrased in the areas with the best habitat.

White-tail-deer

Anyone interested in a good book about deer management should read Deer Management 101 by Dr. Grant Woods. After reading a lot of posts about the subject my interest was peaked enough to read some literature written by biologists who are spending their lives researching and documenting the subject. It's an easy read and is excellent IMO.

The major problem with PA's management as it exists today IMO (reading one book or the PGC website doesn't make me an expert as it does others) is the lack of micro management. Each farm, tract of land or Game Lands needs to be managed. This is just not economically feasible to be managed by the PGC. We all participate in the way each area we hunt is managed. The simplest form is everytime we decide to pull the trigger or to not pull the trigger is active participation in our area's management. I have to respect ulysses for taking an active approach in his area when deer sightings are down since the PGC is going to continue to issue tags (even though I don't agee with shooting only button bucks, but to each his own). We have to each take responsiblity for our individual hunting grounds and politic other local hunters to do the same.

And keeping with the thread, I would like to thank Dr. Alt for his service to the state. He took the first steps in changing our deer management from a plan mananged by tradition to a plan managed by biology.

rybohunter

Ok wizards of deer managment.....

In states where the general train of thought is to wait on bigger deer, but still maybe not to the most strict qdm standards, why haven't thier herds gone genetically to crap?

What if suddenly the VAST majority of hunters started waiting on nicer bucks here in PA and AR's were no longer needed. Would our deer herd genetics go bad?

Nice point PAtrophyman

deaddeer

It appears you are saying that hunters should manage the areas where they hunt and ignore hwat the PGC biologists are telling them. In that case , the PGC should just issue 1 M anterless tags good for anywhere in the state and let the hunters decide where to use them. If 1 M tags doesn't result in a high enough harvest then they can increase the allocations to 1.5M.

White-tail-deer

All I am saying is we need the PGC to give an overal guideline and general structure to the management. But if your hunting in your area and you have three tags and you are seeing less deer than desireable, why fill them and complain about not seeing deer???