Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
12-22-2004, 08:48 PM
#111
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,503
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
You are assuming that all of the bucks killed this year are super genetic 1.5 year olds. You are also assuming that all the bucks saved by AR's are inferior racked bucks. I saw one buck this year that wasn't legal for its area and was a old, mature, inferior buck. I am talking about a 6 point (no brow tines), that was between 18"-20" wide outside, with great mass and great tine length! A heck of a nice looking rack but definetly not as many points as he should have! That is one buck out of the large amount of bucks I saw this year! I also saw a great 2.5 year old 10 point get passed by another "old-timer" because this guy had saw a bigger buck on that property in the fall! AR's aren't perfect, but they are much better than having 85% of the buck harvest being 1.5 year olds that havn't had time to mature and show their true potential. A cull system is impossible unless done on a large piece of private property or a hunting ranch where the people who hunt the property dictate what deer get shot. The next best thing is AR's which are the only sensible option for statewide management!
As for AR's not working.... well, the proof is in the pudding. When I took my buck to the taxidermists, I saw dozens upon dozens of racks from this area with the average rack being in the 130" range and several in the 160" - 170" range! So far, I know of 5 different bucks shot in this county alone that had over 20 scoreable points! Also, I have never seen so many bucks in our local newspaper and of these bucks, the majority were old mature big antlered bucks! Just because someone and his buddies havn't shot or saw a huge buck this year doesn't mean that they aren't out there, and likewise, just because one guys sees tons of big bucks, doesn't mean that they are everywhere. You gotta look on a bigger scale, and around here, that scale is showing a huge improvement in body weight and antler size on the bucks harvested! I will take that over one or two guys saying that they are only seeing spikes and forkhorns.
As for AR's not working.... well, the proof is in the pudding. When I took my buck to the taxidermists, I saw dozens upon dozens of racks from this area with the average rack being in the 130" range and several in the 160" - 170" range! So far, I know of 5 different bucks shot in this county alone that had over 20 scoreable points! Also, I have never seen so many bucks in our local newspaper and of these bucks, the majority were old mature big antlered bucks! Just because someone and his buddies havn't shot or saw a huge buck this year doesn't mean that they aren't out there, and likewise, just because one guys sees tons of big bucks, doesn't mean that they are everywhere. You gotta look on a bigger scale, and around here, that scale is showing a huge improvement in body weight and antler size on the bucks harvested! I will take that over one or two guys saying that they are only seeing spikes and forkhorns.
12-22-2004, 08:53 PM
#112
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 947
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
Of course the buck harvest is going to be less. With AR you are only permitted to shoot a certain class of buck. That only makes sense.
As for taking out the 2.5 yr old bucks every year and leaving nothing behind. What do you think the 1.5 yr olds will be the following year. Its a cycle and the deer don't stop getting older. Why would you shoot the younger smaller deer? There would be no younger deer to replace the mature buck that die off.
You can't manage PA like a private ranch, but you can take some aspects of what they do.
They don't shoot button bucks.
They do control the doe population.
They do have self-inposed AR.
The only thing we can't do is cull the inferior bucks. But with new 2.5 yr old(last years 1.5 yr)buck and left over mature buck from the prior year, the infeior buck will not have as much of an opportunity to breed.
Buck Magnet had a good pst about the 2 of you running circles around each other. Your both getting lost in your own words.
Ulysses, how are you getting reception up there on a cell phone? We have to go to Potatoe city to make a call. We are only a couple miles apart. I'm coming to your house next year to make my phone calls.
As for taking out the 2.5 yr old bucks every year and leaving nothing behind. What do you think the 1.5 yr olds will be the following year. Its a cycle and the deer don't stop getting older. Why would you shoot the younger smaller deer? There would be no younger deer to replace the mature buck that die off.
You can't manage PA like a private ranch, but you can take some aspects of what they do.
They don't shoot button bucks.
They do control the doe population.
They do have self-inposed AR.
The only thing we can't do is cull the inferior bucks. But with new 2.5 yr old(last years 1.5 yr)buck and left over mature buck from the prior year, the infeior buck will not have as much of an opportunity to breed.
Buck Magnet had a good pst about the 2 of you running circles around each other. Your both getting lost in your own words.
Ulysses, how are you getting reception up there on a cell phone? We have to go to Potatoe city to make a call. We are only a couple miles apart. I'm coming to your house next year to make my phone calls.
12-22-2004, 09:04 PM
#113
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,503
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
Of course the buck harvest is going to be less. With AR you are only permitted to shoot a certain class of buck. That only makes sense.
As for taking out the 2.5 yr old bucks every year and leaving nothing behind. What do you think the 1.5 yr olds will be the following year. Its a cycle and the deer don't stop getting older. Why would you shoot the younger smaller deer? There would be no younger deer to replace the mature buck that die off.
You can't manage PA like a private ranch, but you can take some aspects of what they do.
They don't shoot button bucks.
They do control the doe population.
They do have self-inposed AR.
The only thing we can't do is cull the inferior bucks. But with new 2.5 yr old(last years 1.5 yr)buck and left over mature buck from the prior year, the infeior buck will not have as much of an opportunity to breed.
As for taking out the 2.5 yr old bucks every year and leaving nothing behind. What do you think the 1.5 yr olds will be the following year. Its a cycle and the deer don't stop getting older. Why would you shoot the younger smaller deer? There would be no younger deer to replace the mature buck that die off.
You can't manage PA like a private ranch, but you can take some aspects of what they do.
They don't shoot button bucks.
They do control the doe population.
They do have self-inposed AR.
The only thing we can't do is cull the inferior bucks. But with new 2.5 yr old(last years 1.5 yr)buck and left over mature buck from the prior year, the infeior buck will not have as much of an opportunity to breed.
Ulysses, i must admit your last post sounds pretty reasonable. I dunno about issuing a doe tag with every back tag though, other than that i wouldn't mind seeing a plan like that in place.
12-23-2004, 04:31 AM
#114
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 377
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
Buck magnet: as for issuing a doe tag with a back tag ... go back an REREAD my post about it. I did indeed suggest that, but also suggested that if a WMU is at or below DD goals then that WMU should be restricted from doe harvest (this would force anyone wishing to put doe meat in the freezer to hunt in WMUs with an overpopulation of deer, thus aiding in lowering that WMU's herd) .
AR can be made better, Unneeeded HR sucks
AR can be made better, Unneeeded HR sucks
12-23-2004, 05:45 AM
#115
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 947
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
I wouldn't mind a drawing for a buck tag if it HAD to come to that. I don't think they can put a doe tag on each back tag for a certain WMU. What if my doe tag is for 5B which is across the state from me? Don't get your britches in a bunch. Smaller doe allocations are coming soon enough and hopefully smaller WMU's as well.
Happy Holidays to all.
Happy Holidays to all.
12-23-2004, 05:47 AM
#116
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
Well said BM and 902!!!
What Gary alt seems to have pulled off in a very short time is a positive change in attitude for many PA hunters. We seem to have evolved from an attitude of "well, its only a spike but at least it's a buck" to " I had to pass some baby bucks but I they'll be nice ones next year! by the way, I took a doe" Obviously not everyone has adopted this mentality but I personally know a lot that have. Guys that are now happy that this mindset was, at first, forced upon them.
IMHO here what Gary ALt has accomplished
The average age of harvested bucks has increased. Bigger racks are a welcome by product.
A major attitude change in most Pa hunters
HR is well on its way in some areas, possibly accompilshed in some.
Much still needs to be done:
Finer tuned (smaller) DMU's
expand seasons, incentives, and opportunities in areas where the population is still growing (where there are still unsold tags) with earn a buck, earlier doe only archery and muzzy seasons, maybe a longer late season in hotspots.
Gamelands specific doe tags where the kill has been too high
Mandatory reporting with meaningful enforcement for those who dont comply
Begin ratcheting up the penalty for "mistake kills of immature bucks"
Theres still much to be done, Its now at least a possibility with the work that Gary Alt has started.
You can't manage PA like a private ranch, but you can take some aspects of what they do.
They don't shoot button bucks.
They do control the doe population.
They do have self-inposed AR.
They don't shoot button bucks.
They do control the doe population.
They do have self-inposed AR.
IMHO here what Gary ALt has accomplished
The average age of harvested bucks has increased. Bigger racks are a welcome by product.
A major attitude change in most Pa hunters
HR is well on its way in some areas, possibly accompilshed in some.
Much still needs to be done:
Finer tuned (smaller) DMU's
expand seasons, incentives, and opportunities in areas where the population is still growing (where there are still unsold tags) with earn a buck, earlier doe only archery and muzzy seasons, maybe a longer late season in hotspots.
Gamelands specific doe tags where the kill has been too high
Mandatory reporting with meaningful enforcement for those who dont comply
Begin ratcheting up the penalty for "mistake kills of immature bucks"
Theres still much to be done, Its now at least a possibility with the work that Gary Alt has started.
12-23-2004, 06:03 AM
#117
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 491
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
Of course the buck harvest is going to be less. With AR you are only permitted to shoot a certain class of buck. That only makes sense.
Here is an example of how AR is suppose to work. If AR is implemented in a stable herd that produced a buck harvest of 200K,and AR saved 40K ,1.5 buck., the buck harvest would decline to 160K. In theory ,in the second year of AR, the 40K buck saved the first year would become legal 2.5 buck and would make up for the 40K ,1.5 buck protected the second year. Therefore, the buck harvest would return to 200K. But, due to non-hunting mortality and the fact that not all of the 2.5+ buck would be AR legal , the buck harvest with AR is always smaller than without AR.
As for taking out the 2.5 yr old bucks every year and leaving nothing behind. What do you think the 1.5 yr olds will be the following year.
breeders.
The only thing we can't do is cull the inferior bucks. But with new 2.5 yr old(last years 1.5 yr)buck and left over mature buck from the prior year, the infeior buck will not have as much of an opportunity to breed.
12-23-2004, 06:06 AM
#118
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
ORIGINAL: Buck Magnet
Okay....... let me get this straight! I heard complaints about a low buck harvest, now I am hearing complaints that we need the buck harvest to be lower. I heard that we had too many doe killed and now I hear that we need doe tags on the back of the regular hunting liscence. I hear that we need to kill the small/inferior bucks, then I hear we should kill more button bucks, and then I hear we need to shoot only old mature bucks... keeps going in circles and circles never making much sense!
Okay....... let me get this straight! I heard complaints about a low buck harvest, now I am hearing complaints that we need the buck harvest to be lower. I heard that we had too many doe killed and now I hear that we need doe tags on the back of the regular hunting liscence. I hear that we need to kill the small/inferior bucks, then I hear we should kill more button bucks, and then I hear we need to shoot only old mature bucks... keeps going in circles and circles never making much sense!
12-23-2004, 08:57 AM
#119
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,716
RE: Thank you Gary Alt! Best wishes in your retirement!
I remember in the pre-Alt era, when guys got skunked, they always blamed the game commission. It's the easiest group to point the finger at.
I've heard whales tales about PGC's secret commando, black helicopter, doe sterilization programs. I've heard people swear that PGC stocks mountain lions and coyotes as a scheme to undermine the success of Pennsylvania hunters. I've heard that PGC employs snipers to shoot off the deer herds. I've heard that PGC has unleashed poisons and viruses to kill the herd. All of this, because PGC is "all about the special interests" and doesn't want the hunters to enjoy any success.
Cry me a river. I haven't gotten skunked since I was 12. If I would get skunked, I know plenty of other good hunters who'd give me a deer to eat.
So what if buck hunter success rate is going down in PA. Let's look at our aging hunting population with failing eyesight, failing hearing and limited physical capacity and try to ascertain exactly why they aren't getting anything these days.
Competing with 1,000,000 other hunters isn't easy. It never will be, but with a little skill and cunning, you should at least be able to put something in your scope.
Poor old Gary Alt is just the latest in a long line of PGC officials to get bashed by everyone who didn't get a deer. It's just more evident now that we have forums such as these where everyone can focus their whining.
I've heard whales tales about PGC's secret commando, black helicopter, doe sterilization programs. I've heard people swear that PGC stocks mountain lions and coyotes as a scheme to undermine the success of Pennsylvania hunters. I've heard that PGC employs snipers to shoot off the deer herds. I've heard that PGC has unleashed poisons and viruses to kill the herd. All of this, because PGC is "all about the special interests" and doesn't want the hunters to enjoy any success.
Cry me a river. I haven't gotten skunked since I was 12. If I would get skunked, I know plenty of other good hunters who'd give me a deer to eat.
So what if buck hunter success rate is going down in PA. Let's look at our aging hunting population with failing eyesight, failing hearing and limited physical capacity and try to ascertain exactly why they aren't getting anything these days.
Competing with 1,000,000 other hunters isn't easy. It never will be, but with a little skill and cunning, you should at least be able to put something in your scope.
Poor old Gary Alt is just the latest in a long line of PGC officials to get bashed by everyone who didn't get a deer. It's just more evident now that we have forums such as these where everyone can focus their whining.
