PA BB Harvests
10-13-2004, 07:57 AM
#21
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 491
RE: PA BB Harvests
A 13% DROP IN BB HARVESTEDin 2003,not an increase, Page 70. Pa. Hunting Digest. I also know there was a similar drop in the other years of AR.
1999--43.2K
2000--66.0K
2001--62.4K
2002--77.5K
2003--68.4K
10-13-2004, 09:21 AM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: PA BB Harvests
Rybo is right. This is a dead horse.
The only thing that stinks worse than this dead horse is the flaming hypocracy of DD continuing to complain about a problem he seems proud to have contributed to.[:'(][:'(][:'(]
The only thing that stinks worse than this dead horse is the flaming hypocracy of DD continuing to complain about a problem he seems proud to have contributed to.[:'(][:'(][:'(]
10-13-2004, 10:57 AM
#23
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 491
RE: PA BB Harvests
I am not complaining about shooting BB. On the contrary , I encourage anyone that believes in herd reduction to harvest any legal deer they have the opportunity to harvest.
What I am trying to do is educated the misguided and uninformed that think we can prevent the decrease in the buck harvests by passing on BB,when all that does is delay the adverse effects of herd reduction by one year while at the same time it accelerates the decline in the buck harvests in the long run. For example, in 2003 we harvested 9 K fewer BB, but we harvested more than 22.6K adult doe , because we harvested a higher percentage of adult doe than we normally would. The average adult doe produces 1.67 embryos so the loss of 22.6 K adult doe decreases the number of fawns produced the following year by about 40K. If half of the fawns are BB ,saving 9K BB in 2003 resulted in 20K fewer BB born in 2004.
Now if we had reduced the herd by 5 % as called for by Alt's plan we would have removed another 55K adult does we would have reduced the number of fawns produced by another 96K ,which would mean a futher decrease of 48K BB. Therefore ,saving BB is not the solution to declining buck harvests.
What I am trying to do is educated the misguided and uninformed that think we can prevent the decrease in the buck harvests by passing on BB,when all that does is delay the adverse effects of herd reduction by one year while at the same time it accelerates the decline in the buck harvests in the long run. For example, in 2003 we harvested 9 K fewer BB, but we harvested more than 22.6K adult doe , because we harvested a higher percentage of adult doe than we normally would. The average adult doe produces 1.67 embryos so the loss of 22.6 K adult doe decreases the number of fawns produced the following year by about 40K. If half of the fawns are BB ,saving 9K BB in 2003 resulted in 20K fewer BB born in 2004.
Now if we had reduced the herd by 5 % as called for by Alt's plan we would have removed another 55K adult does we would have reduced the number of fawns produced by another 96K ,which would mean a futher decrease of 48K BB. Therefore ,saving BB is not the solution to declining buck harvests.
10-13-2004, 11:46 AM
#24
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 255
RE: PA BB Harvests
my, my they do get upset when you point out foibles in the plan. Don't they DD?
If this is a dead horse why are so many Alties responding? I don't think its a dead horse. I think its a dead fly, in the ointment.
Alties can't figure out why there wasn't any 'shock and awe' in these first years of change? Dumbfounded that there aren't skads more deer. Many don't like math, they do not want to hear that 3+5 is not 13. Many cannot comprehend that less deer = less deer.
Memory loss appears to be a problem among them too, they quickly remember AR, but most often forget HR is happening too. And with HR comes less deer, less opportunity, and less satisfaction.....
If this is a dead horse why are so many Alties responding? I don't think its a dead horse. I think its a dead fly, in the ointment.
Alties can't figure out why there wasn't any 'shock and awe' in these first years of change? Dumbfounded that there aren't skads more deer. Many don't like math, they do not want to hear that 3+5 is not 13. Many cannot comprehend that less deer = less deer.
Memory loss appears to be a problem among them too, they quickly remember AR, but most often forget HR is happening too. And with HR comes less deer, less opportunity, and less satisfaction.....
10-13-2004, 11:53 AM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: PA BB Harvests
I've been listening to all of the supposed "facts" and mumbo-jumbo about doe numbers, BB numbers, "increased" this, that, and the other, but I can tell you one thing----
The ONLY thing that matters to me where I hunt in PA is sightings from stand and THOSE numbers, and I can easily and safely say that deer hunting in PA has turned to squat in the past few years, at least where my crew hunts. (4D) We go there to SEE numerous deer, and to bring home meat. If we want a true trophy, we go to IL or KS. PA IMHO will never be the type of trophy-laden country that the midwest is, and I personally feel we are decimating the herd in PA for little more than the insurance companies and burecrats' wishes. We keep a logbook at camp of number of deer taken, number of deer sighted from stand each day, and number of deer spotlighted at night, and altho there may be one or two large bucks within the areas we hunt that may have survived from last year, deer as a whole are all but extinct in our area, numbers virtually one 20th of what they were a decade ago. Where we used to all tag-out 10 years ago and have many fun and sometime tall stories to tell, we now seem to all go home with nothing, or maybe an occasional doe to split up amongst the entire group. We pound the swamps, bogs, deep woods, croplands, you name it, and even with a great nut crop this year have been skunked two years in a row now. Sucks is the best way I can describe it.
We spoke with some of the local hunters and some do not even bother to buy tags anymore! We will not be going back anytime soon either, just isn't worth it to drive 8 hrs+ and see maybe a group of 5 deer over the course of a week from stand, especially when we used to see over 100 with no problem.
So, everyone can gripe about BB and whatnot, but the issue carries alot deeper than simply worrying about BB. You cannot eradicate the deer herd to the point of extinction in PA and expect it to stay healthy, no more than you can eliminate the "mistake kills" that allow guys to bag a lesser illegal deer without much worry about anything except paying the warden $25.(saw this happen with a local this year, and it was if nothing was a big deal) Or worse yet, those guys who shoot anything that moves and then worry about whether or not it is legal afterwards, and if not leave it lay. I'm all for helping to increase the big buck population, but you simply cannot wipe out the rest of the herd and think it is going to be fine in the future. JMHO, Pinwheel 12
The ONLY thing that matters to me where I hunt in PA is sightings from stand and THOSE numbers, and I can easily and safely say that deer hunting in PA has turned to squat in the past few years, at least where my crew hunts. (4D) We go there to SEE numerous deer, and to bring home meat. If we want a true trophy, we go to IL or KS. PA IMHO will never be the type of trophy-laden country that the midwest is, and I personally feel we are decimating the herd in PA for little more than the insurance companies and burecrats' wishes. We keep a logbook at camp of number of deer taken, number of deer sighted from stand each day, and number of deer spotlighted at night, and altho there may be one or two large bucks within the areas we hunt that may have survived from last year, deer as a whole are all but extinct in our area, numbers virtually one 20th of what they were a decade ago. Where we used to all tag-out 10 years ago and have many fun and sometime tall stories to tell, we now seem to all go home with nothing, or maybe an occasional doe to split up amongst the entire group. We pound the swamps, bogs, deep woods, croplands, you name it, and even with a great nut crop this year have been skunked two years in a row now. Sucks is the best way I can describe it.
We spoke with some of the local hunters and some do not even bother to buy tags anymore! We will not be going back anytime soon either, just isn't worth it to drive 8 hrs+ and see maybe a group of 5 deer over the course of a week from stand, especially when we used to see over 100 with no problem.
So, everyone can gripe about BB and whatnot, but the issue carries alot deeper than simply worrying about BB. You cannot eradicate the deer herd to the point of extinction in PA and expect it to stay healthy, no more than you can eliminate the "mistake kills" that allow guys to bag a lesser illegal deer without much worry about anything except paying the warden $25.(saw this happen with a local this year, and it was if nothing was a big deal) Or worse yet, those guys who shoot anything that moves and then worry about whether or not it is legal afterwards, and if not leave it lay. I'm all for helping to increase the big buck population, but you simply cannot wipe out the rest of the herd and think it is going to be fine in the future. JMHO, Pinwheel 12
10-13-2004, 08:24 PM
#26
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 255
RE: PA BB Harvests
BB are just an indicator of bigger issues. Not really biological issues, but education issues. The PGC knew in 1999 from other states like Ark and Miss. that when you put an push on antlerless harvests you take additional BB to the zip lock heaven. Yet they played down the effects, lust like they are playing down the actual herd reduction in pa (after 5 years of changes they 'claim' that we have not reduced one single deer)??
Rack waving was blinding some hunters who just heard the AR part, but forgot its weird cousin HR. We have been reducing he herd the last three seasons, but the PGC would like to mislead hunters one or two more years to take a real good bite out of our numbers. It might have been worth it had it produced any decent bucks.... but it hasn't.
3 straight years of declining buck harvests are turning hunters away, ESPECIALLY from 4d. (just curious if you were in state forest in 4d? where?)
So yes, the herd is dropping, buck harvests are down, there is no measureable difference in deer size, the habitat is still poor and over all the results have not been 'shock and awe' but mediocre at best. Driving away hunters at worst.
If you think it is poor now, wait until we get more herd reduction this year. You really will be hunting elsewhere after this season.
a lot of camps will sit empty in 4d this year. And it because of one thing as you pointed out in your post. Because hunters are having less success and the harvest is down.
Rack waving was blinding some hunters who just heard the AR part, but forgot its weird cousin HR. We have been reducing he herd the last three seasons, but the PGC would like to mislead hunters one or two more years to take a real good bite out of our numbers. It might have been worth it had it produced any decent bucks.... but it hasn't.
3 straight years of declining buck harvests are turning hunters away, ESPECIALLY from 4d. (just curious if you were in state forest in 4d? where?)
So yes, the herd is dropping, buck harvests are down, there is no measureable difference in deer size, the habitat is still poor and over all the results have not been 'shock and awe' but mediocre at best. Driving away hunters at worst.
If you think it is poor now, wait until we get more herd reduction this year. You really will be hunting elsewhere after this season.
a lot of camps will sit empty in 4d this year. And it because of one thing as you pointed out in your post. Because hunters are having less success and the harvest is down.
10-14-2004, 06:55 AM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: PA BB Harvests
chickory-
I agree with your post completely, some just cannot see the forest for the trees it seems, but HR is to the point of no return in the areas we hunt from what I have seen this year. It will take at least 5-10 years to bring the numbers back IF we were to stop everything NOW, nevermind turn loose another round of eradication once the larger numbers of rifle hunters hit the woods in a few weeks. I fear it is all but gone to be honest, at least for our generation....
We hunt in the Black Moshannon Area of Centre County as well as down off the mountain in Julian, Unionville, and Martha's Furnace, and another area over towards Kylertown. Some State Forest land, some private, both hard to find any decent numbers of deer in now, and few "large bucks" survive as well. We've been going there off and on now since the early 80's, and it is very apparent that this whole charade the PGC has implemented is just that, a charade. You are correct, many, many camps will be empty come hunting season in the future if this continues, and this will also in turn impact the local economy heavily at a time of year when the local economy can normally enjoy the boost in sales of services, rentals, and products. I firmly believe the PGC shot themselves directly in the foot (or elsewhere) by giving out too many tags, for too many years in a row. JMHO. Pinwheel 12
I agree with your post completely, some just cannot see the forest for the trees it seems, but HR is to the point of no return in the areas we hunt from what I have seen this year. It will take at least 5-10 years to bring the numbers back IF we were to stop everything NOW, nevermind turn loose another round of eradication once the larger numbers of rifle hunters hit the woods in a few weeks. I fear it is all but gone to be honest, at least for our generation....
We hunt in the Black Moshannon Area of Centre County as well as down off the mountain in Julian, Unionville, and Martha's Furnace, and another area over towards Kylertown. Some State Forest land, some private, both hard to find any decent numbers of deer in now, and few "large bucks" survive as well. We've been going there off and on now since the early 80's, and it is very apparent that this whole charade the PGC has implemented is just that, a charade. You are correct, many, many camps will be empty come hunting season in the future if this continues, and this will also in turn impact the local economy heavily at a time of year when the local economy can normally enjoy the boost in sales of services, rentals, and products. I firmly believe the PGC shot themselves directly in the foot (or elsewhere) by giving out too many tags, for too many years in a row. JMHO. Pinwheel 12
10-14-2004, 07:18 AM
#28
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 255
RE: PA BB Harvests
Yep, I thought you might be in or near Black Moshannon. Thank much of your dilema on your district forester Bob Merril of DCNR. He told us in a class two years ago he would like to see a 0-2 deer per mile in the state forest.
Black Moshannon, Six mile Run, Black Bear, Grassflats are all hurting now, and as you have seen a lot of people are pushing on down out of the state forest towards Julian etc...
Our camp is closed for this year, no use hunting up there with numbers so low. We take the kids up in early Oct every year and hike, cook out, etc... and at night we spot deer for the kids... this is the first year we did not see a deer with the light. Several miles of driving and none. We usually see at least 10.
Good luck wherever you end up.
Black Moshannon, Six mile Run, Black Bear, Grassflats are all hurting now, and as you have seen a lot of people are pushing on down out of the state forest towards Julian etc...
Our camp is closed for this year, no use hunting up there with numbers so low. We take the kids up in early Oct every year and hike, cook out, etc... and at night we spot deer for the kids... this is the first year we did not see a deer with the light. Several miles of driving and none. We usually see at least 10.
Good luck wherever you end up.
10-14-2004, 08:34 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: PA BB Harvests
0-2 deer per square mile??? If that is their goal, up on the mountain they will probably reach it after this season, darn near there now. I cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would want to do that to be honest.
We used to spotlight our "loop" and see anywhere from 180-240 deer per night. Habitat was still sustaining them too, tho crop damage was admittedly high in some areas. I still believe a "happy medium" could've been reached oustide of this flat-out eradication. Anyway to finish the story this year we saw 10-20 on average during the spotlighting. Best night was 24. Last two years we even saw a few decent bucks in one area, but nothing even remotely close to that this year. Oh yeah, we heard of a couple of the "big-uns" surviving through to this year,( try the Clay Mine Road Swamp) but every remaining hunter that buys a tag in that area is hunting them. Standing room only.
I dunno where it is going to go, but IMHO it doesn't look good at all, and we have already decided to not go down next year and to instead try NY or CT, where we saw more respectable deer dead alongside the road driving to camp in PA than we saw from stand while actually in PA-- unfortunately the same cannot be said for when we drove across I-80---we saw TWO.
Someone better wake up, and quick. JMHO.
Good luck to you also this year as well as every other ethical hunter out there. Pinwheel 12
We used to spotlight our "loop" and see anywhere from 180-240 deer per night. Habitat was still sustaining them too, tho crop damage was admittedly high in some areas. I still believe a "happy medium" could've been reached oustide of this flat-out eradication. Anyway to finish the story this year we saw 10-20 on average during the spotlighting. Best night was 24. Last two years we even saw a few decent bucks in one area, but nothing even remotely close to that this year. Oh yeah, we heard of a couple of the "big-uns" surviving through to this year,( try the Clay Mine Road Swamp) but every remaining hunter that buys a tag in that area is hunting them. Standing room only.
I dunno where it is going to go, but IMHO it doesn't look good at all, and we have already decided to not go down next year and to instead try NY or CT, where we saw more respectable deer dead alongside the road driving to camp in PA than we saw from stand while actually in PA-- unfortunately the same cannot be said for when we drove across I-80---we saw TWO.
Someone better wake up, and quick. JMHO.
Good luck to you also this year as well as every other ethical hunter out there. Pinwheel 12
10-14-2004, 10:12 AM
#30
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Hughesville, PA USA
Posts: 18,322
RE: PA BB Harvests
ORIGINAL: chickory
It might have been worth it had it produced any decent bucks.... but it hasn't.
It might have been worth it had it produced any decent bucks.... but it hasn't.
And the only unfortunate effect of harvesting BB is the poor sportsman who doesn't indentify their target before pulling the trigger. It's not hard to distinguish a BB from a mature doe, ever, given experience and with modern scopes that the majority uses...it's even easier. Too many morons with the brown it's down attitude, taking running shots on animals that they shouldn't be taking or extending their shooting range beyond their abilities.
I have empathy for your area and I see your point to the equation but in NE PA, AR is the best thing to ever happen and I hear from our brotheren in the west, it's even better.