BTBowhunter

Well said Livbucks

Voluntarily passing on BB's, although optional is one thing we can all do to help the current plan succeed.

MA Jay

Deaddeer-

I have been reading your posts and just don't get it. I have been hunting 3C for the last 10 years and it amazes me how different 2 separate hunters experiences are within an hours drive of each other. The number of bucks my group saw last year is much greater than what we saw 5 years ago. You have a very slight point in regards to the fact that 1.5 year old bucks that grow extra points are being culled while their fork horned brothers get to live ... but you fail to point out some of the huge holes in that argument. First, it has only been 2 years! It would require decades to affect the herd genetic make-up in such a way as to reduce the trait to grow additional points as an immature buck. The reason for that is because when a fawn was born in the year and the quality of the food it eats affects antler growth as much as genetic potential.
Secondly .. the genetic quality of fawns being bred by even 2.5 year old's is an improvement over the old system. Plus, as bucks get older, and there will be more bucks because people have to legally pass them up, they do get wiser and more elusive. So you can't expect to see these more mature deer with the same ease you have been seeing spikes and forks.

Which leads me to my final point, and it may be the most obvious issue with some PA hunters.
Your problem is not with the deer herd .. it is with your hunting choices. Less than an hour from you there are areas that people see 20 to 40 deer a day. Why would you hunt an area that you did not see a single buck in an entire season? The PGC can't put deer in your yard for you to shoot. Maybe there was a better herd there years ago, but obviously you and your neighbors have affected change and removed all of your bucks. Instead of complaining about the management policies you should find a spot within an hours drive where guys like myself and others here go and help manage the growing deer herds with greater buck numbers. It sounds like your area could use a break....

and you may find yourself once again happy with the hunting quality in your home state.

deaddeer

In case you didn't notice the goal for 5 C is 6 DPSM. If you believe in Alt's plan of balancing the herd with the habitat, then one has to shoot any legal deer when the oportunity presents itself in 5C. Sure I could go somehwere else where the hunting is easier ,but then who is going to control the herd where we use to hunt? Also , remember an overpopulation of buck causes more damage that an overpopulation of doe. They damage fruit trees ,Christmas trees and shrubs when they rub their anterlers ,doe don't.

BTW, protecting fawns and yearlings and harvesting adult doe instead , reduces breeding rates and recruitment.

.

deaddeer

1. I was quite satisfied with the hunting we had before , when we had a reasonable chance of harvesting either an antlered buck or a doe.

2. I don't have to fill my freezer , but we do like venison and the sex really doesn't matter that much. Bucks just add a little more excitement to the hunt.

3. I do not complain about high deer density. I think the area we hunt can support the deer we have , but my neighbors disagree and we do have a fair number of road kills ,so the herd definitely has to be controled at or below it's current levels.

Remember , I am discussing these issues based on Alt's plans and his OWDD goals. I am simply pointing out the conflict between implementing AR while trying to reduce the herd by 50%. I am also pointing out the vast differences in the effects of Alt's plan , in various areas of the state.

My position is that AR should never have been implemented statewide when the herd was 50% above the goal OWDD. AR's should only be implemented in WMU's that are within 20% of their goal OWDD ,after 60% of the hunters vote to approve AR. Furthermore, the OWDD goals should be updated to include all of the habitat that the deer use to survive ,rather than just forested habitat. That would increase the OWDD goals to 21 or 22 DPSM instead of 13 DPSM and that would mean we would only have to reduce the herd statewide by 15% instead of 50%.

livbucks

The point is , there are going to be pockets of inconsistancy in any given management district. I think you are trying to dutifully carry out the plan on a pocket of land that is not representative of the conditions if it's district. Over every other hill you will find varying degrees of deer density. By killing every deer on your parcel you are not helping to control the DD on a parcel even 5 miles away. You could make your area devoid of deer for several years and still have overpopulation only a few miles away. Do what's best for your situation and don't overemphasize what is needed over the next hill, unless you want to walk over that hill and help shoot some of those deer, (that's an option). Does have small home ranges and doe fawns generally like to stay with their mothers or where they were born.

DougMD

I think it is erroneous to make statements about how spike bucks will grow in comparison with other bucks or deer. The reason is that with AR, more does are shot, so there is more forage for the remaining deer, so that "spike" probably wouldn't be a spike, he'd be a 6 or 8 because he would have received better nutrition. They have done studies that suggest MOST spikes are that way due to overpopulation and consequent lack of nutrition, not due to genetic inferiority.

Making statements about spikes ASSUMES they will be a spike regardless of deer numbers and nutrition, which is flawed rationale...


I also just read an article in D&DH that stated that button buck mortality during doe season is not as large as people think, and the policy of shooting does is a GOOD overall policy for the health of the herd and having bigger bucks...

deaddeer

We are doing what is right for our situation. Farmers are complaining about crop damage, residents are complaining about damage to their gardens and roadkills are increasing. Simply put , the herd needs to be controled where we hunt and in every other woodlot in 5 C.


What you are telling us to do is ignore the experts, ignore the complaints from our neighbors and just manage the herd to produce more bucks. Personally I think that would be irresponsible.

deaddeer

Those statements are simply not true. Our herd continued to increase after AR was implemented so there was no additional food to improve rack size. The latest study show that the average spike will not catch up with the average 1.5 ,6 or 8 pt until they are 3.5 or 4.5. In Miss. where they have had statewide longer than any other state ,rack sizes decreased in the areas with the best habitat. We are harvesting the best buck in each age class and protecting the smallest, slower developing inferior buck, so the average buck in each age class above 1.5 will be smaller with AR than without.

livbucks

How can there be so many deer that all landowners are outraged, when the only deer harvested by anyone that you know of in the area were BB?
Do the deer hide in underground bunkers? If you are hunting around residential areas then you have to drive the deer out of their hiding places. That is why they reduced the safety zone for bowhunting to 50 yards. My Dad and I have always agreed that BBs are the dumbest deer in the woods. I just can't understand your position or statements based on all of my years of hunting PA deer.

deaddeer

I guess you never had the pleasure of hunting deer where there is posted ground and a lot of houses that are owned by people from NY and NJ. The vast majority don't like hunting and don't want any hunters close to their property. Even when you do get permission it is almost impossible to get the deer to move in the direction of the standers since they'll will cut through peoples yards and stand in open fields where you can't get a safe shot and you can't approach them.

Just why do you think the population are out of control in 5C ,5B and many other WMU's? It certainly isn't due to the lack of anterless tags . It is because limited access makes deer in rural areas much harder to control by hunting than the deer in the NC county with much more publiu land.

What you may not realize is it is much harder to harvest a doe in 5 C than it is in 2G. For example, from 92-96 the PGC issued 14.5 anterless tags PFSM in Elk Co. and 48.9 tags PFSM in Northampton Co. In Elk we harvested 1 anterless deer for every 3 tags ,but in Northampton it was one anterless deer for every 5 tags issued.