Bill Yox

Jhoff, yep, I got bit by the trapping bug a long time ago too! In a small area alongside my house, Id say about five acres worth, I trapped 15 reds, two greys and three coyotes. Thats in 8 traps, or 5 sets. Id say that pretty much illustrates how well those buggers are doing together, in my locale at least. Phade mentions Dobbins thoughts on this, but I dont feel its accurate here. The point I was making is, in some areas its all coyotes, yet other areas, like mine, coyotes dont seem to drive off the competition. Go two hours southwest of me and theyre screaming that theres no more reds. Go northeast of me three hours and guys will tell you they worry about their rabbit dogs while hunting. A local trapper here by me that does it full time caught just over 200 reds, I dont recall how many greys, but less, of course, along with 40-something coyotes! Besides being alot of skinning, this catch again illustrates how they are living together in this region.

In our area here a lot of guys hunt coyotes and reds with dogs, groups that go almost every weekend during season. I hear of coyote "tournaments" around the Finger Lakes region too. We used to call fox at night, mostly greys. Lots of hunters I know still hunt reds with calls by day, and some get coyotes too. As more guys do it, it seems less effective on coyotes though. That, again, is just my opinion though.

As for the bobcats, I foget where you live, but here in NY, theres places where bobcats are well established, but they dont seem to fill into other areas very well.

PAGobbler and moosehorn, we used to hear quite a bit about coydogs as well as wild dogs around here, some being aggressive like you describe. I never experienced it myself, but I know I heard of it second hand. I wonder if the reason we dont hear too much of it nowadays is partly due to the coyotes numbers being higher now. Interesting topics, huh guys?

jhoffman

Bill Yox, I am from Springville, NY - it is about 20 - 30 minute south of Buffalo on Rt 219. I hunt in Delevan, NY and alot of other places but mostly Delevan. That's where I grew up so I know the woods like the back of my hand.

I have never hunted yotes with dogs but, it sounds like it would be fun. Would like to try it someday. I was out in the woods yesterday for awhile and checked out a coyote den. They have used the den for the last 5 - 6 years - I always see coyotes by it year round. I am thinking about putting a trail cam at the entrance of the den to try and get some pics of the pups.

i haven't had much luck calling fox or yotes durring the day or even early morning. I have the best luck at about 10 PM or later - I use a johny stewart electronic call most of the time but I have acouple of mouth calls too. Grey fox in distress of coyote pup in distress seem to work best. for yotes and woodpecker distress seems to work best on reds and greys. I use my Savage model 11 .243 Winchester, and my brother brings the 12 gauge with 3' #2 or bigger shot. this combo doesn;t allow many to get away. I have my .243 sighted in dead on at 250 yrds and for any that sneek in on us the 12 gauge works out nice.

Don't know what I would do if I ever called in a lion though. Probably run faster than the guy with me Just Kidding. Wouldn't that be something though - I wonder if that is common out west where lions would be more common?

Phade

Dobbins is not the only ones. Several NY groups believe this as well.

NY Wild:

The red fox is under pressure from the influx of Coyotes into New York State. Coyotes kill the foxes when the two territories overlap.

The apparent increase in red fox populations near human habitation may be linked to the growth of the coyote population in New York State. The smaller animal can survive quite well among humans due to its secretive behavior.

Tons more for the North east, inlcuding the Ontario, and Maine, and New Foundland government sites.

All state that red fox are the ones pushed out by coyotes. Since coyotes roam a larger range, you would have to have a solid pack of them in the area to begin the competititve problems.

But like I said, the point still stands, gray's will be less likely to move out of coyote territory compared to a red fox for many reasons.

Bill Yox

Phade, I hope you know I wasnt singling you out, or Dobbins, for that matter, just using the example. I personally dont agree with their logic. I know, theyre the "experts" and Im not. But, I form my opinions based on what I see, and I still say that it really varies from area to area. Theres guys in the midwestern states that say they havent seen or caught a red in YEARS once the coyotes moved in. Quite a difference from here. My friends 200 reds vs 40 coyotes speaks volumes to me...This has been a fun topic to debate and ruminate!

Phade

oh I know

BTW...was at the Reg 8 office in Avon...saw someone's work on the wall there right when I walked in...

Also found out you did work for a relative a couple years ago.

jhoffman

Bill Yox and Phade you both seem to realy know what you're talking about - Do you get your knowledge from first hand - being in the field - or is it career related.

I was pretty much just raised in the woods and on the water and when you start out going hunting and fishing when your barley old enough to cross the road on your own you learn alot. I have three other brothers and between us we probably know more about hunting and fishing than most of the people we run into in the woods.

Its amazing how many people take the outdoors for granted. I wish more people could see some of the thing I see on a weekly basis. Saw a Bald Eagle today - figured ot was just passing through though - Although there are a couple that took up residence around the Kinzua Resevoir down on the res.

Have any of you ever heard of anyone seeing silver fox in the wild - In NY -

A good friend of mine shot one while calling at night in Springville, NY - He had it mounted and he reported it to the DEC and they didn't fine him or anything. They just were kind of confused as to where it came from. I figure it was pen raised and just got loose.
What do you think?

Phade

I have no idea on the silver fox, not heard of one wild in NY.

Many farms raise silver fox, as they demand a penny or two on the fur block.

I think experience and knowledge are often mistaken for one another. I get the knowledge from from my career, and also from my hobby (I write a bit). It is only natural for people to make connections to others in the same general field, but with differing expertise. This is where you gain the all-important second hand knowledge that carries many people through in life.

I agree, experience from the field is the best. A bald eagle is something to take notice of in the wild. I get a visit from a 3 legged yearling buck, growing his first set of antlers, each day in the back yard.

Bill Yox

My explanation is similar to Phades. I have just been blessed with opportunity, I guess. For instance, Phade mentions the three legged buck. Well, I raise whitetails here as well as do the taxidermy (I also do some writing, like Phade) and I had a three legged buck hang around...for three years! He was a wild buck, and used to actually go into my barn and some outbuildings. In time I could approach within a few yards of him. Last winter he finally broke his other hind leg in the deep snow, and I found him dead that spring.

See, I dont mean to try to out-do Phades experience, or anyone elses. I often worry that Ill be read as a "one-up" kind of guy, no matter what you say, I did one better. Its just that like you guys, Ive been fortunate to see what I do. Jhoffman, actually, I come from the south side of Buffalo as a kid originally, and became a country boy over the years. In fact I can still remember as a boy visiting the Kinsua Dam with my grandparents. Small world, huh? Lol!

The DEC wouldnt fine anyone for shooting a silver fox...its still a red fox, just a color phase. My personal hunch would be a ranch fox released into the wild, or even a second generation of one. I could tell by looking at its size, though. I seldom see the color phases of reds occuring in the wild this far east. Go northwest and youll see as many black, silver and cross fox variants as you will reds. Same holds true for bears. Out west the color phases are the norm, here its the exception. Wanna see something cool about color phases? Almost any species that shows color phases includes a black or melanistic phase, but often a red phase too. Can you think of some? How about...coyote, raccoon, ruffed grouse, screech owl, black bear, mink, polyphemus moth and bobcat. Heres a really neat one. Can you name the only north american mammal thats pelage or coat is different colors in males than females? Not adults and juveniles, but the boys being different colored than the girls. Theres a name for that principle, but I forget what its called. Its common in birds. For instance, Blue Jays and Canada geese are the same, Baltimore Orioles and Rose breasted Grosbeaks are different. Can you guess the mammal example?

Funny what we pick up off the street corners, eh?

bhw

While bow hunting in the Adirondacks a few years back, a prime silver fox trotted right past me. It's the only one I've seen. An acquaintance called one in and shot it a few years ago as well (near Lima)

BHW

NY Outdoors

There has been a mature Bald Eagle hanging around this are for a few years now.

he likes circling the susquehana (unfortunately) from the endwell area west to owego nichols area. I spend my entire summer fishing that section of the river. I see him often more right in the apalachin area though. For some reason he really likes cruising the river right here behind round top park in endicott. I haven't found where he goes to roost but he has to have a nest near by. I see him all year round.

he came circling down the river about 50 feet right above me one time...... talk about freeking neat. Amazing bird and just massive. Seen some big owls down this way but that bird is hugh.

Big mature eagle atleast 6 foot wingspan. Very vivid dark almost black and very crisp pure vivid white. Definitely a mature one. Probably seen him 20 times over past 3 years.