Big Country

I am not sure where to start here, so I will try to address your comments in order...

Let me first state that I am NOT trying to argue with you, ELK guy(too many letters in your name!) I am merely addressing the crossbow issue, and you seem to be the only one discussing it right now.

What do I do with my old bows? First, I thank you for getting more people into our sport....

I sell some of my old bows(I get 3-5 new ones per year)and like you, I give many of them away. I am finishing up putting different cams on my 2004 Hoyt XTec now to send to a serviceman in Iraq right now.

You say that it is EASY to shoot 3" groups all the time at 40 yards with a crossbow. Can we agree that that translates into 1.5" groups at 20 yards?

The most EXPENSIVE target crossbows cannot seem to accomplish that feat at Vegas every winter, and that is with serious archers shooting them.
quote:

I think people will use the xbow as a cruch.I allso think people will try to get there little kids shooting animals befor they have the maturity to BOW hunt


This may be true regarding the young kids, but if a dad is gonna do this, then he would do it with a rifle just as quick.

Look into the state of Ohios statistics with crossbows....they have been legal there for many, many years...and Ohios deer herd is as healthy as can be.
quote:

It will allso give a bunch of rifle hunters the eazy way out.


This have not been the case in any states that have legalized them yet, but if it were to come true.....would you not prefer to have these hunters making clean hits with a crossbow, as opposed to the alternative?

You sound like you have been hunting for a long time, as have I....so you already know that a HUGE portion of our verticle bow hunters really have no business flinging arrows at live game with the lack of practice they put in. This is sad but true.
quote:

You would have to SHOW any kids the how the xbow and bows are the same.


While a crossbow is not EXACTLY the same as a verticle bow, it does shoot an arrow at speeds almost exactly the same as a good compound.

It does have the same effective range as a compound.

It does require the SAME skills as a hunter to get the game within those same range limitations.

It does propel an arrow with limbs and a string.

Lets face it.....for a bowhunter that has put in some practice, compound bows are 1000 times easier to kill with than a traditional bow, and a crossbow is NO easier to kill with than a compound bow.

That is just the way it is.

Remember, I do not hunt with a crossbow. I do not own a crossbow. I do not even really like crossbows. But they are coming, slowly but surely, because there is no legitimate reason to keep them out of archery season.

So you and I might as well get used to the idea......

_____________________________

Team NON-TYPICAL!

thesource

Big country, you are using the same old xbow spin that they all use.

Yes, OH has a healthy herd. xbows have not decimated it. BUT...OH only has a 7 day gun season. That leaves a lot of deer for "archers". OH has 1/2 the gun hunters that PA or NY has. OH has fewer bow and xbow hunters combined than NY or PA has BOW hunters.

If you're trying to say that target xbows can't shoot 1.5" group at 20 yds....I call Bullcrap! Get on some xbow forums and read about 60 yd groups and "rifle like" performance.

Crossbows may very well have bow-like terminal performance and require good hunting skills for shot opportunities.

But don't kid yourself - xbows do NOT require ANY archery skills, you know draw, anchor, hold, aim, release, follow through. OK, you need to aim...and shoot. Xbow requires a rifle skill set, not a bow skill set. I think that alone is enough to keep them out of archery season.

Big Country

Not what I said at all.

What I said was....it is not easy for anybody to do it. Each year at Vegas some of the BEST crossbow shooters in the nation compete at 20 yards. The 10 ring is just about 1.5" in diameter.

These competitors using super Hi tech expensive rigs cannot put all of their arrows in the 10 ring.

If they cannot do it, how can you explain the fact that "anybody can do it"?

As to the rifle like performance? Hey, I see guys at the clubs I belong to shoot their rifles, some of them think a 3-5 inch group at that distance is acceptable.

Using a benchrest, these crossbow guys might get 3" groups at 60 yards. I can do that on a decent day with my compounds......and no benchrest.

You seem to be hung up on your self invented "skillsets", but on this forum as well as the other one, you have yet to offer any rational reason to exclude crossbows from archery season.

I am a patient man.......I can wait!

RWK

[>:] Big Country if these people where conscientious hunters they would not talk about 60 yard shots, when they know they should keep there shoots under 40 yards for a quick and accurate kills. As some one said earlier these bowhunter clubs want it all for there selves,and they'll tell you they can take care of all peoples physical problems, if not do'nt hunt, well hell on you. Rich

MA Jay

I hunt New York, mostly archery but some ML and shotgun.

The only issue I think I have with combining archery equipment (and by that I mean bows) and crossbows during the same season is what has happened in Ohio. 60+% of all deer killed during archery season are shot with crossbows in Ohio. That scares me frankly. 60% of archery deer are killed with crossbows. Bows do not take 1/2 of the animals in that state's archery season. Ohio has a 7 day gun season? Why... I think because they kill so many deer with crossbows and bows and ML's that the fire arm guys are forced to hunt with another weapon if they want some time in the woods. Reduce the crossbow season, lengthen the fire arm season and you have balance. Crossbows are a more efficient hunting weapon than archery equipment. Not by much, but enough to make a difference. As many have said.. look at Ohio. The success percentage of crossbow hunters is greater than archers. By lumping them together you have to manage them together.

One other issue I have with crossbows is their exploitation by the anti-firearm crowd. New York has it's shotgun only areas, with the addition of the crossbow we all KNOW it will be just a matter of time before the anti-gun crowd will see the more efficient crossbow as an excellent gun alternative for hunters.

thesource

BC -

Let's discuss this on AT.

Big Country

OK...

MA Jay, you are correct when you state that 60% of all archery kills are with crossbows.

HOWEVER.....58% of all archers use crossbows, and they kill 2% more than their verticle bow counterparts comparatively.

This is still a misleading number because the other 42% of bowhunters include traditional in with compound users.

This group using both compounds and traditional bows accounts for 40% of all archery deer taken.

No matter how hard you WANT those figures to prove that crossbows are some magical weapon, giving the user a huge advantage........it just is not there.

Crossbows will not be the end of civilization.....

BTBowhunter

I'm gonna start by saying that I own and hunt with a crossgun occasionally. I bought it for special conditions and circumstances. I am in a suburban deer control program and have to hunt tight spots with sparse cover where guns are prohibited in the late season (read that gun season) when most deer ,even suburban deer are on high alert. I personally dont like it as a weapon.... noisy, harsh, not near as accurate as my compound when shooting conditions are right. It does, however, provide a huge advantage when in tight spots with wired deer because it doesnt have to be drawn in the presence of the deer. That being said, my biggest concern is the mere PERCEPTION that it's easier to use will draw the lazy and inept into the archery season. I would be less resistant to the crossgun if its use in the archery season was only allowed after ALL hunters who wish to hunt with a sharp stick (bolt OR arrow) were required to take the NBEF course AND pass a proficiency test. The archery season does not need any more hunters looking for an easy way out or a shortcut to what should be a challenging way to hunt.

Just my $.02

PS for the record, my biggest PA buck (129 6/8) was a crossgun kill. But it was during the gun season and Big Country helped me find it!

MA Jay

Big Country, I believe you missed my point concerning Ohio.

This last year, Ohio "archers" killed 22% more deer than the year before, gun hunters decreased 13%. Crossbows are replacing the deer kill numbers from guns. It's really very simple, and I am not saying it is wrong or that crossbows are bad. They are not the end of civilization, just a major change in the logistics of hunting seasons as we have known them. I believe, based on Ohio and other states with legal crossbow use that they are replacing the gun not the bow. Is that a bad thing? No, I don't think so. We can't pretend that it is not happening though, as it clearly is.

What I wonder about is if people who advocate so strongly for crossbow use during the longer archery seasons realize what they are giving up by transitioning firearm hunters to crossbow hunters. You are not recruiting "new" hunters, the numbers in the states that allow them bear that out. You are recruiting gun hunters to use crossbows as the gun seasons are becoming shorter and the crossbow seasons allow more time in the woods. Still not a bad thing... but couple that with a crossbow season that is very long, with the much larger traditional gun season hunting group and the ony thing that suffers is gun season. I don't mind sharing the woods 1 bit, I love to see other hunters out there. What I see here in the North East is more and more towns and areas not allowing gun hunting any longer, and restricting hunters to archery only. I do not think that is right or a good thing. What the crossbow represents is viable alternative to the gun .. as clearly evidenced by the harvest in Ohio. I don't know about you, but I know what happens when gun rights loses the backing of the "hunter". You may not care about this, but please do not be blind to it or dismiss it.

Big Country

MA Jay, while I do not gun hunt, and have not for nearly 20 years now....I would never want to se gun hunting suffer in any way that is unaviodable.

I do not wish to see folks who love to use a firearm suffer the loss of their passion.

I can concede that you now are making legitimate points with your Ohio numbers....although I would say that these dual season hunters are knowingly cutting short their gun season by filling their tags with a bow of some sort.

Where does that leave the now smaller group of gun hunters who do not wish to partake in the bow season?

Good question.....

This could conceivably negatively impact gun only hunters due to shorter seasons.......but I am sure you realize that the health of the herd dictates harvest quotas...

So, going with this line of thinking.....somebody has to suffer if the harvest gets too high.

I am not saying that I prefer one group to suffer a shorter season over another....either way a "hunter" loses some opportunity.

Ohio took I believe 14 years of wide open crossbow use to have crossbow hunters catch up to verticle bow hunters.....

If this post seems like mindless drivel....I am trying to pack for a long weekend of archery, sporting clays, golf, and cart racing........

My mind is not on debate just now!

Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion, and I have no doubt we will revisit this a few times in the future......