Are we losing sight?
12-14-2009, 09:08 AM
#131
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 659
I hunted four hard years before I took my first buck at age 15.
My older brother hunted TWELVE years before he took his first buck.
This was back when we would see 25 deer in a group and not a legal buck in the group. I know that parents and mentors want to provide some gratification...and FAST, to their young studys. But this isn't always the best thing. I think that we are raising a lazy, uncommitted, dis-interested crop of younger hunters in many cases. The good times of being in the wild with family, and participating in a primal activity together is what it was always all about. Not killing a deer NEVER disappointed me, even early on. I was always a happy hunter and sad when the hunt ended, no matter the bounty or lack therof.
My older brother hunted TWELVE years before he took his first buck.
This was back when we would see 25 deer in a group and not a legal buck in the group. I know that parents and mentors want to provide some gratification...and FAST, to their young studys. But this isn't always the best thing. I think that we are raising a lazy, uncommitted, dis-interested crop of younger hunters in many cases. The good times of being in the wild with family, and participating in a primal activity together is what it was always all about. Not killing a deer NEVER disappointed me, even early on. I was always a happy hunter and sad when the hunt ended, no matter the bounty or lack therof.
I think you'll find many more of the lazy, success comes easy- kids in the QDM clubs. I really worry, that as my kids fast approach the hunting ages, that at this current rate,I will even be able to find enough deer to keep them interested. Forget about it being easy. Take a kid to the north big woods now, a good chance he won't even see a deer. Hunting IS and WAS a great family pasttime, and breat bonding time...but we also have all year to do that. You have a few short weeks each fall to hunt deer. A couple months if you bowhunt or hunt late season. That's it. Don't sing that song about '"t's not about the hunting" to me. For a few short weeks each year, it is definitely about the hunting, as it's the only time we can hunt them. Its' not about birdwatching, hiking, etc. All year to do those things, which we also do to varying degrees, including boy scouts of which I've been involved most of my life. I spend alot of times in the woods outside of deer season. Deer season is for deer hunting....fun and social as it may be at times. There is a threshold there of success, or atleast action/ deer sightings...that needs to be met to retain interest...especially in young/ new hunters. It doesn't help that the magazine aisle is pastered with photos of huge, steroid fed deer from QDM farms in the midwest that set our kids up for failure before they even get started. The hunting shows where the celebrity passes on half a dozen bucks your kid will probably never see the likes of, then tags a monster and never cracks a smile. Like it was hard work. Like it was just another head for the wall.Makes your kid feel ashamed to hunt hard all season and "settle" for a yearling, or "fail" to tag a deer at all. Now lower deer numbers across much of PA have turned hunting into some kind of selfish, defensive game, that has as much to do with foiling other guys' plans, as it does with outsmarting the deer. Better "wreck" the first one you see with a .300 mega magnum, because if he doesn't drop in his tracks, the guys over the hill will get him. Better scatter hair and ivory soap around that other guy's stand. There's only three deer left on this mountain, and we want to be the ones to get them. It's alright we spent hundreds of dollars between that new rifle, your gore tex, boots, license, etc. I mean...hey, you saw some cardinals and the trillium is really looking good this year. Bet you can't wait till next year. What? you'd rather stay home and play your Wii? I don't get it. Gimme a break.
12-14-2009, 10:31 AM
#132
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
What isn't fully understood is that a kid either has the drive and interest to hunt or he doesn't. The ones that went hunting..didn't kill a deer first time out, and then wanted to quit...were probably just going because Daddy was shaming them into it anyway. My Dad NEVER had to ask me if I WANTED to go hunting. It was a given.
12-14-2009, 10:59 AM
#133
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
Im as die-hard as they come. I saw dad come home with deer when very young and of course I wanted to do the same. I also went along often and saw game. Pretty strong motivators for a kid.
Would I have taken to hunting if dad came home each night with nothing but a cold arse for years? And if i did, would i have then stuck with it if I had to hunt in areas with pathetic deer densities as is the case today for many? I really dont know. Cant answer that unless I were in those shoes.
Then again..Who knows, I dont think so, but maybe dad wouldve quit long before Id started and Id never have even gotten the opportunity to go in the first place.
But I guarantee current management practices sure as hell does no good for recruitment or retention. No amount of excuses or attempts to rationalize in the world are gonna whittle away those facts.
Pa has as low a hunter satisfaction level as any state in this nation and that totally unacceptable.
Would I have taken to hunting if dad came home each night with nothing but a cold arse for years? And if i did, would i have then stuck with it if I had to hunt in areas with pathetic deer densities as is the case today for many? I really dont know. Cant answer that unless I were in those shoes.
Then again..Who knows, I dont think so, but maybe dad wouldve quit long before Id started and Id never have even gotten the opportunity to go in the first place.
But I guarantee current management practices sure as hell does no good for recruitment or retention. No amount of excuses or attempts to rationalize in the world are gonna whittle away those facts.
Pa has as low a hunter satisfaction level as any state in this nation and that totally unacceptable.
Last edited by Cornelius08; 12-14-2009 at 11:03 AM.
12-14-2009, 11:09 AM
#134
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 10,277
If a kid doesnt want to hunt and are gonna pout if they don't drop a deer 10 minutes into the first day of hunting season then it would probably be best to let them sit at home and play Wii instead. That's why they call it deer hunting not deer killing and you buy a license to hunt not a certificate for a guaranteed kill. If they have that short of an attention span, then get them involved in kicking brush for rabbits, squirrel hunting, or other stuff that has a lot more action. Iin most instances, if a kid is somewhat motivated to hunt but doenst stick with it, then it is the fault of the person who should be teaching them correctly, not the PGC for failing to maintain the deer population at easy to kill levels.
But the cold reality is that I can see the benefit to making an effort to keep even those with little interest wanting to go hunting considering the drop in numbers of hunters in many areas. But it is a slippery slope when it starts to be all about trying to keep the interest of some kids that probably dont really belong out in the woods to beging with. And it is very bad when it becomes all about them killing something without much challenge instead of simply enjoying being out in the woods in good company.
But the cold reality is that I can see the benefit to making an effort to keep even those with little interest wanting to go hunting considering the drop in numbers of hunters in many areas. But it is a slippery slope when it starts to be all about trying to keep the interest of some kids that probably dont really belong out in the woods to beging with. And it is very bad when it becomes all about them killing something without much challenge instead of simply enjoying being out in the woods in good company.
12-14-2009, 11:15 AM
#135
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
Pointing to A kid pouting over not seeing adeer in the first 10 minutes of one day as any form of argument at all isnt rational, and has no part in this conversation. Noones saying that the desired result. Noones clamoring for that. That would be the "extreme" viewpoint of what the plan should produce. The exact opposite extreme would be what our deer program is currently. Wanting more deer than currently which is the only responsible direction in no way correlates to a kid shooting a deer in 10 minutes.
That slippery slope you speak of, consisting of paying too much attention to managing for recruitment as you put it, becomes a verticle drop-off when the issues are no concern at all. 100% irresponsible, and not a route the majority of states in this country take where deer management is concerned.
" instead of simply enjoying being out in the woods in good company. "
As ss so perfectly put it, thats for the other 8 months of the year. Hunting season is for hunting. Its not called "enjoying being in the woods in good company season" for a reason. If someones not interested in hunting, they shouldnt be in the woods during the season. Better off at home watching the boob tube. Its cold out there, dangerous with bullets flying around and the ever present pa puma. Wait for Sunday to go flower picken'.
Anyone whod go as far as deny that extreme reduction deer management strategies dont effect recruitment or that it doesnt matter at all, is simply looking to argue and nothing more imho. Its an irrational arguement.
That slippery slope you speak of, consisting of paying too much attention to managing for recruitment as you put it, becomes a verticle drop-off when the issues are no concern at all. 100% irresponsible, and not a route the majority of states in this country take where deer management is concerned.
" instead of simply enjoying being out in the woods in good company. "
As ss so perfectly put it, thats for the other 8 months of the year. Hunting season is for hunting. Its not called "enjoying being in the woods in good company season" for a reason. If someones not interested in hunting, they shouldnt be in the woods during the season. Better off at home watching the boob tube. Its cold out there, dangerous with bullets flying around and the ever present pa puma. Wait for Sunday to go flower picken'.
Anyone whod go as far as deny that extreme reduction deer management strategies dont effect recruitment or that it doesnt matter at all, is simply looking to argue and nothing more imho. Its an irrational arguement.
Last edited by Cornelius08; 12-14-2009 at 11:26 AM.
12-14-2009, 11:33 AM
#137
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 10,277
Its also an irrational argument to claim that there are all these people who will go years without taking a deer or even seeing a deer during hunting season under current conditions. Even the folks on here who take the sky is falling position usually end up acknowledging that they see deer, kill deer, or choose to pass on particular deer. So, sorry, but i don't buy the story that all these kids are dropping out of hunting because they spent weeks in the deer stand and didn't see anything but chipmunks.
The only way to make everybody truely happy and to be able to effectively recruit kids into deer hunting who really arent hunters but like to shoot deer is to manage the herd at unsustainable levels so that it is like shooting fish in a barrel. But sometimes that doesn't even work in terms of making people happy. Illinois's deer herd and harvest rates are off the charts, yet one can still find plenty of people making the same complaints about quality of hunting and management as I hear from folks like you in PA.
The only way to make everybody truely happy and to be able to effectively recruit kids into deer hunting who really arent hunters but like to shoot deer is to manage the herd at unsustainable levels so that it is like shooting fish in a barrel. But sometimes that doesn't even work in terms of making people happy. Illinois's deer herd and harvest rates are off the charts, yet one can still find plenty of people making the same complaints about quality of hunting and management as I hear from folks like you in PA.
12-14-2009, 11:35 AM
#138
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"If they have that short of an attention span, then get them involved in kicking brush for rabbits, squirrel hunting, "
So if we have ZERO interest in hunting small game we should pretend its the best thing since sliced cheese trying to fool our kids into loving hunting because they cant love deer hunting do to the mismanagement?? Seems thats what you are saying here.
"or other stuff that has a lot more action."
Deer hunting offers plenty enough action to hold ones attention when management is proper such in other states where the advice isnt necessarily "take your kids squirrel hunting cause t'aint no deer!" You dont have that when the sport itself is a management consideration. No reason for us to accept less than that which should only be expected.
So if we have ZERO interest in hunting small game we should pretend its the best thing since sliced cheese trying to fool our kids into loving hunting because they cant love deer hunting do to the mismanagement?? Seems thats what you are saying here.
"or other stuff that has a lot more action."
Deer hunting offers plenty enough action to hold ones attention when management is proper such in other states where the advice isnt necessarily "take your kids squirrel hunting cause t'aint no deer!" You dont have that when the sport itself is a management consideration. No reason for us to accept less than that which should only be expected.
12-14-2009, 11:44 AM
#139
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 10,277
Sorry dude, but if you have zero interest in hunting anything other than deer then you are always pretty much going to be vulnerable to disappointment. Ditto for kids that are being taught that deer hunting is the only worthwhile pursuit, and that effective management is keeping deer at overpopulated levels to keep so much "action" oout in the woods that even the short attention span folks are happy. You just explained a lot to me without even realizing it.
Last edited by Lanse couche couche; 12-14-2009 at 11:47 AM.
12-14-2009, 11:53 AM
#140
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
"Its also an irrational argument to claim that there are all these people who will go years without taking a deer or even seeing a deer during hunting season under current conditions."
Noone said a thing about "seeing a deer" Its a pretty pathetic hunter that would define the quality of their season based upon seeing "a deer" lol .
Want to question the "going without deer" part? I suggest you familiarize yourself with the harvest stats vs. hunter numbers. 109-120k bucks split between 900,000 hunters? Hell you can even throw in the higher than should be but still low comparatively doe harvests which arent sustainable. Consider the sra areas have from 58-100K doe tags!! And guys there can slaugher many deer apiece...And apply that information when examining the numbers and you'll see the huge majority are not successful taking ANY deer each year, Extreme reduction isnt exactly the prescription for their ills either.
"Even the folks on here who take the sky is falling position usually end up acknowledging that they see deer, kill deer, or choose to pass on particular deer. "
Im guessing the few here who do that are very avid hunters and hardly the "average". If they didnt have the interest they wouldnt be here all the time discussing these issues. Remember the current discussion is involving KIDS and recruitment. Not whether or ss or anyone else here can "find" a deer.
"So, sorry, but i don't buy the story that all these kids are dropping out of hunting because they spent weeks in the deer stand and didn't see anything but chipmunks."
As much as you like to try and thing so, I dont see whereas you have a clue whats going on here. lmao. I mean that sincerely and not being a wisearse either. You dont live here, you dont hunt here, and you have no valid source for much information where any of this is concerned.
"The only way to make everybody truely happy and to be able to effectively recruit kids into deer hunting who really arent hunters but like to shoot deer is to manage the herd at unsustainable levels"
Guess, you must be talking about another state. Cant really speak about that.
"Illinois's deer herd and harvest rates are off the charts, yet one can still find plenty of people making the same complaints about quality of hunting and management as I hear from folks like you in PA."
So? Perhaps you have a valid beef with them. Then again Im not hearing those complaints as I dont closely follow what goes on in Ill. I do know its a well known fact Ill. is one of the best states in the nation. I know a helluva lotta guys from Pa spend alot of money to hunt out there and its not because their hunting is terrible. I also know Illinios ranks about 30 places above pa in boone & crockett rankings, and I know Illinois deer management didnt need a bullet proof vest. I dont think they have nationally known "deer wars", and their managemnt isnt spoken of as the biggest joke in the nation. Need I say more??? Because we both know there is plenty more that i could add!
Noone said a thing about "seeing a deer" Its a pretty pathetic hunter that would define the quality of their season based upon seeing "a deer" lol .
Want to question the "going without deer" part? I suggest you familiarize yourself with the harvest stats vs. hunter numbers. 109-120k bucks split between 900,000 hunters? Hell you can even throw in the higher than should be but still low comparatively doe harvests which arent sustainable. Consider the sra areas have from 58-100K doe tags!! And guys there can slaugher many deer apiece...And apply that information when examining the numbers and you'll see the huge majority are not successful taking ANY deer each year, Extreme reduction isnt exactly the prescription for their ills either.
"Even the folks on here who take the sky is falling position usually end up acknowledging that they see deer, kill deer, or choose to pass on particular deer. "
Im guessing the few here who do that are very avid hunters and hardly the "average". If they didnt have the interest they wouldnt be here all the time discussing these issues. Remember the current discussion is involving KIDS and recruitment. Not whether or ss or anyone else here can "find" a deer.
"So, sorry, but i don't buy the story that all these kids are dropping out of hunting because they spent weeks in the deer stand and didn't see anything but chipmunks."
As much as you like to try and thing so, I dont see whereas you have a clue whats going on here. lmao. I mean that sincerely and not being a wisearse either. You dont live here, you dont hunt here, and you have no valid source for much information where any of this is concerned.
"The only way to make everybody truely happy and to be able to effectively recruit kids into deer hunting who really arent hunters but like to shoot deer is to manage the herd at unsustainable levels"
Guess, you must be talking about another state. Cant really speak about that.
"Illinois's deer herd and harvest rates are off the charts, yet one can still find plenty of people making the same complaints about quality of hunting and management as I hear from folks like you in PA."
So? Perhaps you have a valid beef with them. Then again Im not hearing those complaints as I dont closely follow what goes on in Ill. I do know its a well known fact Ill. is one of the best states in the nation. I know a helluva lotta guys from Pa spend alot of money to hunt out there and its not because their hunting is terrible. I also know Illinios ranks about 30 places above pa in boone & crockett rankings, and I know Illinois deer management didnt need a bullet proof vest. I dont think they have nationally known "deer wars", and their managemnt isnt spoken of as the biggest joke in the nation. Need I say more??? Because we both know there is plenty more that i could add!
Last edited by Cornelius08; 12-14-2009 at 12:04 PM.