High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
05-06-2009, 07:55 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
Seriusly,I own an insurance agency and BTB was correct with his assessment.I watch my loss ratio very closely because myyear end nonus hinges on it.Deer claims are generally small.I pay no attention to them.I worry about fire,liability and multiple car accidents.
Look at it this way.Deer claims are covered under comprehensive as are glass claims,fire,theft,flood,falling objectsand vandalism.Even though deer claims are only one piec of total comp claims,comprehensive coverage is usually alot less than collision coverage.
Deer claims really aren't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.More importantly though,they're predicable and that predictability allows the companies to adjust the rates and make a profit.
Go back and look at the people who sponsored the audubon kill the deer conferences.Lot's of stakeholders there but not one representative from the insurance industry.Never has one attended a PGC meeting and asked for less deer.That isn't true with many other stakeholder groups.
Look at it this way.Deer claims are covered under comprehensive as are glass claims,fire,theft,flood,falling objectsand vandalism.Even though deer claims are only one piec of total comp claims,comprehensive coverage is usually alot less than collision coverage.
Deer claims really aren't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.More importantly though,they're predicable and that predictability allows the companies to adjust the rates and make a profit.
Go back and look at the people who sponsored the audubon kill the deer conferences.Lot's of stakeholders there but not one representative from the insurance industry.Never has one attended a PGC meeting and asked for less deer.That isn't true with many other stakeholder groups.
05-06-2009, 08:57 AM
#22
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 659
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
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Using
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[/align]Grinnell Mutual reported that an average of 2,335 claims were filed for deer-related
accidents for the 6 years from 2002 through 2007. The average claim was for $2,135 so the total
annual cost averaged $5.0 million. There was a slight decrease in the claims filed with Grinnell
Mutual and a slight increase in the claims filed with Select over the 6 year period (Table 2).
Table 2. The number of insurance claims involving deer and the total and average amount
of the claim for 2002 through 2007 for Grinnell Mutual policy holders.
Grinnell Mutual Select Combined
Claims Total Average Claims Total Average Claims Total Average
2002 1,703 $3,306,020 $1,941 654 $1,340,583 $2,050 2,357 $4,646,602 $1,971
2003 1,492 $3,055,567 $2,048 739 $1,409,909 $1,908 2,231 $4,465,476 $2,002
2004 1,536 $3,216,375 $2,094 800 $1,579,872 $1,975 2,336 $4,796,247 $2,053
2005 1,403 $3,115,101 $2,220 707 $1,551,524 $2,195 2,110 $4,666,624 $2,212
[align=left]2006 1,480 $3,363,204 $2,272 956 $2,249,941 $2,353 2,436 $5,613,146 $2,304
2007 1,336 $3,048,351 $2,282 1,203 $2,711,008 $2,254 2,539 $5,759,359 $2,268
accidents for the 6 years from 2002 through 2007. The average claim was for $2,135 so the total
annual cost averaged $5.0 million. There was a slight decrease in the claims filed with Grinnell
Mutual and a slight increase in the claims filed with Select over the 6 year period (Table 2).
Table 2. The number of insurance claims involving deer and the total and average amount
of the claim for 2002 through 2007 for Grinnell Mutual policy holders.
Grinnell Mutual Select Combined
Claims Total Average Claims Total Average Claims Total Average
2002 1,703 $3,306,020 $1,941 654 $1,340,583 $2,050 2,357 $4,646,602 $1,971
2003 1,492 $3,055,567 $2,048 739 $1,409,909 $1,908 2,231 $4,465,476 $2,002
2004 1,536 $3,216,375 $2,094 800 $1,579,872 $1,975 2,336 $4,796,247 $2,053
2005 1,403 $3,115,101 $2,220 707 $1,551,524 $2,195 2,110 $4,666,624 $2,212
[align=left]2006 1,480 $3,363,204 $2,272 956 $2,249,941 $2,353 2,436 $5,613,146 $2,304
2007 1,336 $3,048,351 $2,282 1,203 $2,711,008 $2,254 2,539 $5,759,359 $2,268
State Farm estimated that there were 31,737 deer-vehicle accidents in Iowa over a 12-
month period and that the number has increased 12.2% over the last 5 years. Only North Dakota,
Pennsylvania and Wisconsin had a decrease over the 5-year period. The average change was
+14.9% nationally (Table 3).
Table 3. The percent change in the number of deer-vehicle accident claims over the past 5
years according to State Farm Insurance.
State % State % State %
Alabama 19.5 Kentucky 7.3 North Dakota -0.4
Arizona 0.1 Louisiana 1.5 Ohio 21.8
Arkansas 34.5 Maine 23.1 Oklahoma 18.4
California 16.1 Maryland 11.1 Oregon 1.8
Colorado 8.1 Michigan 13.6 Pennsylvania -8.1
Connecticut 26.1 Minnesota 18.4 South Carolina 12.9
Delaware 27.1 Mississippi 33.1 South Dakota 8.8
Florida 24.9 Missouri 12.5 Tennessee 22.2
Georgia 9.8 Montana 32.2 Texas 22.1
Idaho 31.2 Nebraska 43.7 Utah 25.2
Illinois 8.7 New Hampshire 16.8 Virginia 31.8
Indiana 24.2 New Jersey 47.7 Washington 15.1
Iowa 12.2 New Mexico 27.7 West Virginia 11
Kansas 29.7 New York 22.6 Wisconsin -5.3
North Carolina 35.5 Wyoming 36.1
Using
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05-06-2009, 09:08 AM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
Steel, think about what you just posted. You have actually helped support what Doug and I have said.
You have demonstrated that the industry has a very good handle on what those claims cost. They do that with all claims. Guess why? So they can justify their rates. More $$ in predictable claims= more premiums for that coverage= higher total profits as a percentage of a higher number!
With the reduction in PA deer claims, Pa insurance companies will likely face a demand for lower comp premiumsfrom the insurance department the next timethey file for rates. If they were to get into the deer controversy (and they wont) they'd be quietly on the side of more deer.
You have demonstrated that the industry has a very good handle on what those claims cost. They do that with all claims. Guess why? So they can justify their rates. More $$ in predictable claims= more premiums for that coverage= higher total profits as a percentage of a higher number!
With the reduction in PA deer claims, Pa insurance companies will likely face a demand for lower comp premiumsfrom the insurance department the next timethey file for rates. If they were to get into the deer controversy (and they wont) they'd be quietly on the side of more deer.
05-06-2009, 02:08 PM
#24
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: manassas va USA
Posts: 614
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
Buckhunter1:
why be in such a hurry to slam that slice of pie,,,the ice cream has yet to be served! The Pa. outdoor news article dated 1/15/2009 concludes that 14,000 deer claims were taken in by 1 insurance co. (erie) (according to dougs article that he posted) in the year 2007,,,i see nothing in the article stating that since the deer densities and auto collisions have lowered in fiscal year 2008,,"we" (erie ins. co.) have reevaluated claim status and have decided to cut the projected claim status in half due to collision reportsthus allowing us to lower premiums to the customer" My question to you is this,,,have you recieved a lower premium on your monthly insurance bill? i bet not,,,should this be questioned?,,,sure it should,,,,im gonna put my piece of pie in the microwave and warm it up until somebody serves up some ice cream
why be in such a hurry to slam that slice of pie,,,the ice cream has yet to be served! The Pa. outdoor news article dated 1/15/2009 concludes that 14,000 deer claims were taken in by 1 insurance co. (erie) (according to dougs article that he posted) in the year 2007,,,i see nothing in the article stating that since the deer densities and auto collisions have lowered in fiscal year 2008,,"we" (erie ins. co.) have reevaluated claim status and have decided to cut the projected claim status in half due to collision reportsthus allowing us to lower premiums to the customer" My question to you is this,,,have you recieved a lower premium on your monthly insurance bill? i bet not,,,should this be questioned?,,,sure it should,,,,im gonna put my piece of pie in the microwave and warm it up until somebody serves up some ice cream
05-06-2009, 04:56 PM
#25
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
Here's your ice cream. Insurance companieswork well ahead of themselves. A rate filing takes many months to more than a year to accomplish. State approval can then take as much time. Especially in PA.
As you can also imagine, they will naturally be more methodical and cautious when it comes to decreases. They may even experience a small bump in profits on this small part of their business but in the long term, less deerclaims will eventually mean less profit
As you can also imagine, they will naturally be more methodical and cautious when it comes to decreases. They may even experience a small bump in profits on this small part of their business but in the long term, less deerclaims will eventually mean less profit
05-06-2009, 05:09 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
As you can also imagine, they will naturally be more methodical and cautious when it comes to decreases. They may even experience a small bump in profits on this small part of their business but in the long term, less deer claims will eventually mean less profit
05-06-2009, 06:43 PM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Are you claiming insurance companies file for rate decrease?
As you can also imagine, they will naturally be more methodical and cautious when it comes to decreases. They may even experience a small bump in profits on this small part of their business but in the long term, less deerclaims will eventually mean less profit
Sometimes decreases occur on certain coverages as a part of a filing for an increase overall. And often the decreases may be in certain coverages but overshadowed by increases elsewhere. Typically, the consumer seldom notices the frequent small changesbut definitely notices whenhe takes a big increase.
For instance, lets just say that deer claims continued to decrease. Lets also say that all other claims that go into comprehensive (where deer claims fall) have no change. Comprehensive rates trend down but most likely, it would be overcome by increases elsewhere. IE: collision, FPB, BI Liability, PD liability, UM UIM etc etc
When an auto insurance company files for a rate change,usually an overall increase, they must furnish claim and premium information across the entire product to the state insurance dept. If they are losing big money on collision but making unusually large profits on comprehensive, they might well have to take a decrease on the winner to get the increase for the loser.
Back to the original point. Anything that generates predictable, consistent claims generates revenue for the insurance companies.
More claims cost more, of course, but they generate more premium leading to more profit. In any industry where the profit margin is pretty much a percentage of revenue, increasing revenue increases profit. The only way an insurance company can justify increased premiums (therefore increased revenue and profits) is to show increased claims.
05-07-2009, 04:10 AM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
Here's a quote from an article on restoring white pines.
Eastern white pine is not as shade intolerant as once thought so it is necessary to examine the amount of
removal of understory brush before taking on wide-scale restoration efforts. By keeping some horizontal
and vertical cover, the seedlings are hidden from deer, which decreases the probability of browse
(Saunders 1999). The use of planting species more palatable to white tail deer may also be an option. The
intermixed seedling plantings could occur on the outer edges of reforested areas containing eastern white
pines. The theory behind this is that the white-tailed deer will browse upon the more appealing planted
species and not the eastern white pine seedlings in the forest.
Release from competition (mechanical). Mechanical release (also known as liberation) from competition
within forested ecosystems involves the manual removal of competing plants both woody as well as
herbaceous. This removal reduces competition that young eastern white pine saplings experience on the
forest floor. For this particular method to be effective and implemented correctly, a forest inventory
should be made in order to protect key species in the forest along with the trees that are to be released.
Release from competition (herbicides). Herbicidal release operations can free young desirable trees from
competition and suppression within a forested area. This method utilizes a chemical application to the
foliage and stems of herbaceous and woody plants. In relation to eastern white pine trees, release methods
must be done carefully to avoid ‘burning’ the delicate foliage of the trees that are near targeted areas. The
most common and effective herbicide used in release operations is Picloram. This herbicide in particular
contains an amine salt that is readily absorbed by leaves as well as roots and can be sprayed or injected
depending on situational application (Smith et al. 1996). Picloram is very low in animal toxicity but can
remain at the site of application for about one year (Smith et al. 1996)
Prescribed burring. The role of prescribed burning and the eastern white pine tree is a delicate and
complicated process that should be implemented by trained individuals. Eastern white pine trees by nature
have a thin outer bark with the cambium layer especially vulnerable to disruption and damage, therefore
the rate of fire occurrence should be site and spacing specific ( J.Haarstad personal communication 2003).
In restoration of eastern white pine trees, fire is used to clear the understory of excess woody growth and
litter to provide for a good seedbed by adding essential nutrients released in the burn. The fires usually
used in eastern white pine forested areas are of low intensity; meaning the rate of duration and heat from
the fire is minimal. It is important that a particular prescribed fire frequency is followed due to the
volatility specifically related to eastern white pine trees and other conifers.
Planting high quality seedlings. Planting quality seedlings that are larger rather then using large
quantities of smaller seedlings may be used as an alternative or in collaboration with direct and indirect
methods. Larger seedlings are more able to compete and can grow out of browse height sooner ( Johnson
1984; Smith 1993; Zaczek et al. 1995; Schuler et al. 1996 Dey et al. 1997; Ward et al. 2000)
Conclusion
The decline of eastern white pine has leveled off through the efforts of resource management agencies,
with new efforts underway to restore the previous range (DNR 2003). However, problems from white-
tailed deer, disease, competing weeds and shrubs, and lack of a viable seed source still need to be
addressed. These issues have put enormous stress on the remaining stands and on the new generation.
The most significant of these aforementioned stresses is the increase in white-tailed deer populations in
the northeastern forested regions of the United States. White-tailed deer can stress this system of forest
ecosystems directly by browsing or indirectly by altering species composition.
removal of understory brush before taking on wide-scale restoration efforts. By keeping some horizontal
and vertical cover, the seedlings are hidden from deer, which decreases the probability of browse
(Saunders 1999). The use of planting species more palatable to white tail deer may also be an option. The
intermixed seedling plantings could occur on the outer edges of reforested areas containing eastern white
pines. The theory behind this is that the white-tailed deer will browse upon the more appealing planted
species and not the eastern white pine seedlings in the forest.
Release from competition (mechanical). Mechanical release (also known as liberation) from competition
within forested ecosystems involves the manual removal of competing plants both woody as well as
herbaceous. This removal reduces competition that young eastern white pine saplings experience on the
forest floor. For this particular method to be effective and implemented correctly, a forest inventory
should be made in order to protect key species in the forest along with the trees that are to be released.
Release from competition (herbicides). Herbicidal release operations can free young desirable trees from
competition and suppression within a forested area. This method utilizes a chemical application to the
foliage and stems of herbaceous and woody plants. In relation to eastern white pine trees, release methods
must be done carefully to avoid ‘burning’ the delicate foliage of the trees that are near targeted areas. The
most common and effective herbicide used in release operations is Picloram. This herbicide in particular
contains an amine salt that is readily absorbed by leaves as well as roots and can be sprayed or injected
depending on situational application (Smith et al. 1996). Picloram is very low in animal toxicity but can
remain at the site of application for about one year (Smith et al. 1996)
Prescribed burring. The role of prescribed burning and the eastern white pine tree is a delicate and
complicated process that should be implemented by trained individuals. Eastern white pine trees by nature
have a thin outer bark with the cambium layer especially vulnerable to disruption and damage, therefore
the rate of fire occurrence should be site and spacing specific ( J.Haarstad personal communication 2003).
In restoration of eastern white pine trees, fire is used to clear the understory of excess woody growth and
litter to provide for a good seedbed by adding essential nutrients released in the burn. The fires usually
used in eastern white pine forested areas are of low intensity; meaning the rate of duration and heat from
the fire is minimal. It is important that a particular prescribed fire frequency is followed due to the
volatility specifically related to eastern white pine trees and other conifers.
Planting high quality seedlings. Planting quality seedlings that are larger rather then using large
quantities of smaller seedlings may be used as an alternative or in collaboration with direct and indirect
methods. Larger seedlings are more able to compete and can grow out of browse height sooner ( Johnson
1984; Smith 1993; Zaczek et al. 1995; Schuler et al. 1996 Dey et al. 1997; Ward et al. 2000)
Conclusion
The decline of eastern white pine has leveled off through the efforts of resource management agencies,
with new efforts underway to restore the previous range (DNR 2003). However, problems from white-
tailed deer, disease, competing weeds and shrubs, and lack of a viable seed source still need to be
addressed. These issues have put enormous stress on the remaining stands and on the new generation.
The most significant of these aforementioned stresses is the increase in white-tailed deer populations in
the northeastern forested regions of the United States. White-tailed deer can stress this system of forest
ecosystems directly by browsing or indirectly by altering species composition.
05-07-2009, 04:46 AM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
Insurance companies do file for rate decreases when marlet conditions allow.They also come out with new rating plans all the time that in many cases,are much less expensive.At one time,insurance rating was easy.It was based mainly on age,driving record,territory and marital status.Today most insurance companies use a very complicated algorithm and base rates on credit,prior carrior,prior liability limits etc.Ifyou're paying more for insurabce today thatn you were 10 years ago,you most likely need an insurance review.
In any event,deer claims are only a part of comrehensive claim and that's only a very small percentage of the total amount of claims being paid out.Even though deer claims are down,it's such a small percentage of the total picture,it won't make much of a difference.I'll use myself as an example.My deer claims are way down but my loss ratio went up 10% just on auto last year.Why?Mainly because we had a brutal winter and that effects claims much more than the number of deer that are out there.Deer claims are relatively small.Collision claims usually involve more damage,medical payout,proprety damage liability and often times,personal liability.
Don't let that ice cream melt.
In any event,deer claims are only a part of comrehensive claim and that's only a very small percentage of the total amount of claims being paid out.Even though deer claims are down,it's such a small percentage of the total picture,it won't make much of a difference.I'll use myself as an example.My deer claims are way down but my loss ratio went up 10% just on auto last year.Why?Mainly because we had a brutal winter and that effects claims much more than the number of deer that are out there.Deer claims are relatively small.Collision claims usually involve more damage,medical payout,proprety damage liability and often times,personal liability.
Don't let that ice cream melt.
05-07-2009, 07:03 AM
#30
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 659
RE: High deer densities may actually be good for some other species?!?!?!
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
Steel, think about what you just posted. You have actually helped support what Doug and I have said.
You have demonstrated that the industry has a very good handle on what those claims cost. They do that with all claims. Guess why? So they can justify their rates. More $$ in predictable claims= more premiums for that coverage= higher total profits as a percentage of a higher number!
With the reduction in PA deer claims, Pa insurance companies will likely face a demand for lower comp premiumsfrom the insurance department the next timethey file for rates. If they were to get into the deer controversy (and they wont) they'd be quietly on the side of more deer.
Steel, think about what you just posted. You have actually helped support what Doug and I have said.
You have demonstrated that the industry has a very good handle on what those claims cost. They do that with all claims. Guess why? So they can justify their rates. More $$ in predictable claims= more premiums for that coverage= higher total profits as a percentage of a higher number!
With the reduction in PA deer claims, Pa insurance companies will likely face a demand for lower comp premiumsfrom the insurance department the next timethey file for rates. If they were to get into the deer controversy (and they wont) they'd be quietly on the side of more deer.