Cornelius08

"have yet to see any suggestion as to who might be better qualified to do the audit. Whom do you propose should do this thing? "

Look one post up from where you posed the question, and I believe I addressed it thoroughly, not sure what you didnt understand.

"WMI is used by game agencies all over the country. 40 states and 4 provinces have used them for similar purposes. They are not PGC puppets. Look at the last time that WMI looked at the PGC. They weren't exactly full of praisethen were they? "

Dont know what you are referring to, but they arent a pgc puppet but clearly a friend via many connections. INcluding some VERY distasteful ones in the way of your "critic" Shissler.LOL. I really love the coincidence of our newest commissioner having worked there as well. Doesnt matter to you though, as long as the deer slaughter continues and you have breath in your body you will support pgc, that is overly clear. It doesnt matter if Adolph Hitler and Ingrid Newkirk were doing the audit...Or if we had 2 dpsm. Youd support the idiots. But guess what, the audit wasnt to be done because of a handful of extreme supporters. It was done because of the detractors. And if the detractors say it carries no weight with them for VERY good reasons, then it carries no weight with them....

Z"It'd be kind of ironic if the forces that have been clamoring for the audit wind up shooting themselves in the foot by demanding it in the first place."

I dontsee that currently as a concern. PFSC and Audubon are just as happy now as they were when they were "clamoring" and coauthored the letter to legislators. They accomplished their goal of avoiding stronger legislative actions.

"I'm with Jim, I prefer to continue to find ways to capitalize on the hunting opportunities that still abound in this state. "

Feel free to knock yourself out. I hear opportunity for squirrelgroundhog and crow "abound" in Pa. As for deer, the opportunity is as pathetic as any state in the nation.

"Whatever the audit concludes, my family, friends and I will find a way to continue to enjoy oursport in this great state.

As will I. Yet I will not give in to eco-flakes and bend over nor do I expect many others to, as you are so willing to do. As long as you dont expect that, then I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. Just stay the hell out of the way.

J Pike

Screamin Steel please dont confuse QDM with the PGC's deer plan, because our deer plan has nothing to do with QDM. I am as big of a QDM avocate as you will ever find ( Please see Link below) and also about as big of anti PGC. Deer plan advocate as you will find aswell.
What you are talking about is PA. hunters that only support the PGC.'s plan because they are not affected by it and would sing a much different tune if they had to hunt public land or private land that was open to anyone. For example Dr. Chris Rosenberry ( And DR. Rosenberry is the perfect example of this and a perfect example of the hypicrit's I am talking about) doesnt care that the PGC is manageing the herd at under 10 dpsm because he is one of the lucky few that can hunt Chesapeake Farms anytime he wants but at the same time would never take his own advice and reduce the DD. to under 10 DPSM on Chesapeake farms even though the habitat is worse than any place I have hunted here in PA. Pike

bluebird2

Here is a case where both of you have valid points. JP is correct in saying the PGC plan is not QDM. But, QDMA of PA awarded Alt the deer manger of the year award which means they supported the PGC plan as representative of the goals of QDMA.But, SS is correct in stating that QDM supports maintaining the herd at much higher DD than the PGC plan as indicated by the QDMA article on the Remmington Farms herd where they had more bucks PSM than the total herd in terms of DPSM in 2G.

J Pike

BB2. QDMA gave Alt the award for the AR. program not herd extermination,
I have never seen a QDMA Biologist, member, etc., recommend or manage their property at less than 50% of Max carrying cap.
If QDMA recommended managing the herd at under 10 deer pere square mile they would be out of business. I know there are QDM members in PA. that support everything the PGC. does but they would never consider managing their property at under 10 DPSM and would sing a much different tune if they had to hunt in an area being managed at that DD.
Just look at BTbowbender, do you think he would spend thousands of dollars and drive thousands of miles each year to hunt IL. if he had to hunt land that was being managed at under 10 DPSM? Pike

bluebird2

Although I will agree that ARs played a major role in Alt getting the reward , QDMA has been supporting the DMP from day one and I doubt that you can find one article by Kip Adams that is critical of PAs HR plan.

I don't know if it is true , but I just heard that the audit will only address the PGCs harvest estimates and herd estimates and will not address herd health or forest health and how those factors are used to manage the herd. Therefore, IMHO ,the audit will do nothing to resolve the split between the PGC and the hunters.

J Pike

BB2 they do not support the current DD goals. But QDMA is not a political Org. and would never say anything neg. about any state's wildlife agency.

As far as what you heard, I heard the same thing months ago and posted about on this thread in the last week or 2. And I agree with your opinion 100%. Pike

bluebird2

But the PGC claims they don't have any deer densities goals and that their only goal is to balance the herd with the habitat which is what QDMA supports. All of QDMA deer management articles emphasize harvesting a lot of doe. In the article you posted about CP Farms they are harvesting 3 times as many buck than doe which is a higher harvest ratio than in PA.

J Pike

Yep QDMA sure does emphasize harvesting doe's and they also emphasize balancing the herd with the habitat, but their idea of balancing the herd with the habitat is 50% of Max carrying cap. Im sure you rember the QDMA article I posted on HuntingPA.com numerous times? (wish I could locate it)
Remember it suggested that Max carrying cap. for the state of MI. was like 58 deer per square mile but they should manage their herd at 50% of max which is 28.9 deer per square mile. I have never once seen any person employed by or associated with QDMA suggest anything lower than 50% of max. Pike

bluebird2

Unfortunately, I don't recall any article where QDMA recommended managing the herd at 50% 0f the Max. Carrying capacity. And, just to make my position perfectly clear, I don't really care what DD any QDM lease choses to manage their herd. The problem is when QDMA tries to get a statewide plan to implement their standards.

As yet , I have not seen a sinlge QDMA article that reference the DD to the carrying capacity of the habitat. What I have seen is that the articles avoid DD estimates like the plague. AS you know, I am a supporter of much higher DDs than what the PGC will allow, and I would really like to see any info from QDMA that supports higher DDs.

J Pike

BB2 I didnt know if you would or not, but when I posted it RSB and Gino tried to say that was for a pre season DD. and you did the math (like you always do) and showed that the 28.9 dpsm goal was an over winter DD. goal.
I will look for some articles for you.
The article I provided a few posts ago doesnt mention DD. but it does mention that they have been harvesting 150 + doe's a year and 30 + 3.5 year old bucks for a number of years on their 3,000 acre property so that should tell you what they think about high DD.'s. Pike