Predators and deer
01-20-2009, 11:44 AM
#41
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 169
RE: Predators and deer
Lets go back to this question. What do you people think is the coyote population is in PA? With a decline in deer numbers and an increase of predators other than man, What will become of the deer herds? More predators and less deer equals? So your PA deer doesn'tyard up?
01-20-2009, 12:19 PM
#42
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 11,472
RE: Predators and deer
[blockquote]quote:
ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter
Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all.
[/blockquote]
i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them
ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter
Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all.
[/blockquote]
i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them
01-20-2009, 12:27 PM
#43
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 169
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.
Coyotes can and occasionally will prey on a fox though it appears to be an extremely rare occurrence. The real reason fox numbers, both red and gray, tend to decline when the coyote numbers increase is simply because they use the same prey base and since the coyote is a larger and more skilled predator he out competes the fox for both the prey base and the no prey food supply. Then since nature guarantees that no population can exceed its food supply for more then short term periods or ideal conditions the fox populations naturally decline. That has nothing to do with predation and is strictly a result of completion for the available food supply.
Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state?
Coyotes do NOT out compete the bobcat. In this part of the state we had lots of coyotes and few bobcats ten to twenty years ago. Now we have continuously increasing bobcat numbers and it seems that the coyote numbers have declined with the increasing bobcat populations. The bobcat is a very equal predator to the coyote even though they do share some of the same prey base. Coyotes are not going to tangle with or try to prey on a bobcat unless it is a very young unprotected one.
What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats?
Adult to adult I suspect the bobcat would win out in a fight with a coyote, but those battles are extremely rare in wild populations since predators almost never want to enter into any fight where there is even a remote chance of being injured. They instinctively know that an injury, even a minor one, likely means death. They aren’t going to put their life at risk unless things are in a very desperate state toward their own survival.
Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes.
Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators.
As for the nose on a coyote or any other predator it simply doesn’t matter when it comes to fawns. The fawns have no scent distinguishable to a predator for the early stages of their life. That is why after they have nursed they walk off and lay down to hide while the doe walks off in a different direction. The predators can track the does, by scent, and they do sometimes do that hoping to get into the right area to stumble onto a fawn. If they do they kill it but it was simply because the fawn failed to remain hidden or the predator got lucky and just stumbled upon the fawn. By the time fawns are leaving scent they can generally outrun a predator.
They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year?
R.S. Bodenhorn
ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack
From my readings,Fawn survival doubled when coyotes was removed from the area. This was also the case with black bears being removed from the area also where fawns was born. K9s have excellent smell and can seek out these new borns quite easy.So their defence doesn't work to well on coyotes as they would on bear.
It's enough charlie to say that when the coyotes was removed from fawning areas the fawn survival doubled.
Also coyotes will kill fox and bobcats that are in their area to protect the food supply. In NY where coyotes are,you see very little fox sign any more. They will attempt to kill every fox and bobcat they see.
From my readings,Fawn survival doubled when coyotes was removed from the area. This was also the case with black bears being removed from the area also where fawns was born. K9s have excellent smell and can seek out these new borns quite easy.So their defence doesn't work to well on coyotes as they would on bear.
It's enough charlie to say that when the coyotes was removed from fawning areas the fawn survival doubled.
Also coyotes will kill fox and bobcats that are in their area to protect the food supply. In NY where coyotes are,you see very little fox sign any more. They will attempt to kill every fox and bobcat they see.
Coyotes can and occasionally will prey on a fox though it appears to be an extremely rare occurrence. The real reason fox numbers, both red and gray, tend to decline when the coyote numbers increase is simply because they use the same prey base and since the coyote is a larger and more skilled predator he out competes the fox for both the prey base and the no prey food supply. Then since nature guarantees that no population can exceed its food supply for more then short term periods or ideal conditions the fox populations naturally decline. That has nothing to do with predation and is strictly a result of completion for the available food supply.
Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state?
Coyotes do NOT out compete the bobcat. In this part of the state we had lots of coyotes and few bobcats ten to twenty years ago. Now we have continuously increasing bobcat numbers and it seems that the coyote numbers have declined with the increasing bobcat populations. The bobcat is a very equal predator to the coyote even though they do share some of the same prey base. Coyotes are not going to tangle with or try to prey on a bobcat unless it is a very young unprotected one.
What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats?
Adult to adult I suspect the bobcat would win out in a fight with a coyote, but those battles are extremely rare in wild populations since predators almost never want to enter into any fight where there is even a remote chance of being injured. They instinctively know that an injury, even a minor one, likely means death. They aren’t going to put their life at risk unless things are in a very desperate state toward their own survival.
Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes.
Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators.
As for the nose on a coyote or any other predator it simply doesn’t matter when it comes to fawns. The fawns have no scent distinguishable to a predator for the early stages of their life. That is why after they have nursed they walk off and lay down to hide while the doe walks off in a different direction. The predators can track the does, by scent, and they do sometimes do that hoping to get into the right area to stumble onto a fawn. If they do they kill it but it was simply because the fawn failed to remain hidden or the predator got lucky and just stumbled upon the fawn. By the time fawns are leaving scent they can generally outrun a predator.
They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year?
R.S. Bodenhorn
01-20-2009, 12:54 PM
#44
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter
[blockquote]quote:
ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter
Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all.
[/blockquote]
i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them
Gotcha! .... silly me what was I thinking?
[blockquote]quote:
ORIGINAL: NY Bowhunter
Don't forget about mountain lions. They could be the biggest threat of all.
[/blockquote]
i dont think cougars here in pa. are much of threat to deer,i believe we only have few of them
01-20-2009, 12:57 PM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: explorer_Jack
Lets go back to this question. What do you people think is the coyote population is in PA? With a decline in deer numbers and an increase of predators other than man, What will become of the deer herds? More predators and less deer equals? So your PA deer doesn'tyard up?
Lets go back to this question. What do you people think is the coyote population is in PA? With a decline in deer numbers and an increase of predators other than man, What will become of the deer herds? More predators and less deer equals? So your PA deer doesn'tyard up?
but now, i seecoyote tracks all time and see very few bobcat tracks.
also, i see usually 4 together in snow,then after awhile it goes too 2 in snow.
you cant walk the roads as i do with my grouse dogs and not see poo,its all over and the dcnr rep told me it was deer hair in poo.
he happened to stop and talk to me and looked at poo for me.he said thats DEER HAIR And it was in month of july, i was out getting my dog in shape and me too.
01-20-2009, 01:10 PM
#47
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 584
RE: Predators and deer
Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state?
No fox probably aren’t starving to death just like few deer actually starve to death. But, starving isn’t always the way nature reduces a wildlife population to keep it within the limits of its food supply. The more typical method of limiting wildlife populations is with lower reproductive rates or recruitment rates that fit the availability of the food supply.
I don’t know how many coyotes we have but the number really doesn’t matter anyway. They are here in all areas with suitable habitat and have been for a long time.
Here is a link that should help you become better informed on coyotes and how they function in nature.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663
What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats?
Besides personal observations also by being a Conservation Officer that monitors wildlife population trends by using volunteers that travel designated wildlife survey route each fall. As those volunteers have recorded increasing bobcat numbers they have also recorded declining coyote numbers.
Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes.
Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators.
Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators.
That is an extremely rare occurrence. Read the above link.
They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year?
Predation by any species was very low in the study area where they had suitable deer habitat and extremely high where the deer habitat has been degraded from year of high deer population.
Here is a link to the fawn study mortality facts.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf
R.S. Bodenhorn
01-20-2009, 01:38 PM
#48
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 169
RE: Predators and deer
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.
No fox probably aren’t starving to death just like few deer actually starve to death. But, starving isn’t always the way nature reduces a wildlife population to keep it within the limits of its food supply. The more typical method of limiting wildlife populations is with lower reproductive rates or recruitment rates that fit the availability of the food supply.
If that was the case,Then why is the PGC reducing the deer numbers because of food shortage? Does this not apply to your deerand just predators?
I don’t know how many coyotes we have but the number really doesn’t matter anyway. They are here in all areas with suitable habitat and have been for a long time.
In what way do you mean the numbers don't matter? Shouldn't they be considered in the deer management and HR of your state? Again if you got more predator than prey,the prey will become extinct. This has been proven all thru history. Also don't the yearling does give birth to 1 fawn most of the time? Would you say that most the mature does been shot off by the request of Gary Alt?
Here is a link that should help you become better informed on coyotes and how they function in nature.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663
Besides personal observations also by being a Conservation Officer that monitors wildlife population trends by using volunteers that travel designated wildlife survey route each fall. As those volunteers have recorded increasing bobcat numbers they have also recorded declining coyote numbers.
I am sorry I do not call that evidence? The PGC does not use eye witnesses who hunt deer as sproul and many others on here as evidence that there is way fewer deer than the carry capacity of the WMU.
That is an extremely rare occurrence. Read the above link.
Predation by any species was very low in the study area where they had suitable deer habitat and extremely high where the deer habitat has been degraded from year of high deer population.
Here is a link to the fawn study mortality facts.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf
In a fawn survival study in Centre County Pennsylvania during 2000-2001, 218 fawns were radioed and followed with telemetry equipment. Of these fawns, predators killed 22 percent, the leading source of mortality. Of the fawns killed by predators, most were killed by coyotes (49%) and bears (43%). Nearly 50% of all mortality occurred during the month of June, with 18 percent and 16 percent in July and August. It was interesting to note that 84 percent of fawn predation occurred on one of two study areas. This probably illustrates the difference in predation rates due to localized coyote populations.
R.S. Bodenhorn
Are the foxes dieing of starvation then your saying? What is your guess of coyote population in your state?
No fox probably aren’t starving to death just like few deer actually starve to death. But, starving isn’t always the way nature reduces a wildlife population to keep it within the limits of its food supply. The more typical method of limiting wildlife populations is with lower reproductive rates or recruitment rates that fit the availability of the food supply.
If that was the case,Then why is the PGC reducing the deer numbers because of food shortage? Does this not apply to your deerand just predators?
I don’t know how many coyotes we have but the number really doesn’t matter anyway. They are here in all areas with suitable habitat and have been for a long time.
In what way do you mean the numbers don't matter? Shouldn't they be considered in the deer management and HR of your state? Again if you got more predator than prey,the prey will become extinct. This has been proven all thru history. Also don't the yearling does give birth to 1 fawn most of the time? Would you say that most the mature does been shot off by the request of Gary Alt?
Here is a link that should help you become better informed on coyotes and how they function in nature.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=458&q=163663
What evidence do you have in the decline of coyotes because the increase of bobcats?
Besides personal observations also by being a Conservation Officer that monitors wildlife population trends by using volunteers that travel designated wildlife survey route each fall. As those volunteers have recorded increasing bobcat numbers they have also recorded declining coyote numbers.
I am sorry I do not call that evidence? The PGC does not use eye witnesses who hunt deer as sproul and many others on here as evidence that there is way fewer deer than the carry capacity of the WMU.
Most the time coyotes run in pairs or more. I would think they would attack a bobcat just to kill it as they do foxes.
Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators.
Again they are protecting their food sources from other predators.
That is an extremely rare occurrence. Read the above link.
They killed 22% of the fawns that are born. That was when your deer herd numbers was high. Now when you lowered your deer herds,What % of fawns for re-population won't make it thru the first year?
Predation by any species was very low in the study area where they had suitable deer habitat and extremely high where the deer habitat has been degraded from year of high deer population.
Here is a link to the fawn study mortality facts.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf
In a fawn survival study in Centre County Pennsylvania during 2000-2001, 218 fawns were radioed and followed with telemetry equipment. Of these fawns, predators killed 22 percent, the leading source of mortality. Of the fawns killed by predators, most were killed by coyotes (49%) and bears (43%). Nearly 50% of all mortality occurred during the month of June, with 18 percent and 16 percent in July and August. It was interesting to note that 84 percent of fawn predation occurred on one of two study areas. This probably illustrates the difference in predation rates due to localized coyote populations.
R.S. Bodenhorn
01-20-2009, 01:48 PM
#49
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 169
RE: Predators and deer
http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/deer/seminars/coyotes/
Where deer densities are too high and hunting pressure light, the coyotes are actually doing the deer herd a favor by taking out a few deer. On the other hand, where we have deer populations less than 10 deer per square mile, coyotes may have a negative impact.
Where deer densities are too high and hunting pressure light, the coyotes are actually doing the deer herd a favor by taking out a few deer. On the other hand, where we have deer populations less than 10 deer per square mile, coyotes may have a negative impact.
01-20-2009, 01:48 PM
#50
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Predators and deer
Here is what the PGC has to say about predation by yotes.
The PGC could offset the effects of predation by simply reducing the antlerless allocations, but since they want a smaller herd they don't really care about predation.
What effect do coyotes have on deer populations?
Response: Coyotes do kill deer, but they don't appear to be seriously impacting deer populations anywhere in the state. Studies in New England have shown that coyotes there are responsible for roughly 50 percent of known fawn losses. However, their research also revealed that more than three-quarters of all newborn deer survive. In Pennsylvania, our data also indicate that coyotes are not a major mortality factor in deer populations; they're no more significant than other mortality factors such as deer lost to highways, crop damage, dogs, starvation and poaching. All mortality factors -- excluding hunting --annually account for about 150,000 to 175,000 deer.
Response: Coyotes do kill deer, but they don't appear to be seriously impacting deer populations anywhere in the state. Studies in New England have shown that coyotes there are responsible for roughly 50 percent of known fawn losses. However, their research also revealed that more than three-quarters of all newborn deer survive. In Pennsylvania, our data also indicate that coyotes are not a major mortality factor in deer populations; they're no more significant than other mortality factors such as deer lost to highways, crop damage, dogs, starvation and poaching. All mortality factors -- excluding hunting --annually account for about 150,000 to 175,000 deer.