Confused

Wow...this thread has really run in a different direction over the past few days!

DougE

True.However,2A should have excellent soils,a longer growing season and alot of agriculture.Therefore,the fawns in that wmu should be getting bred at a higher rate.

Cornelius08

And what does that tell us Mr. Extremist?Even the antideer faction at PGChas NOT rated the herd health in 2A as poor or the habitat, yet YOU seem very intent on proving that it is, both in 2A and everywhere else, in an effort to kill even MORE deer than pgc deems necessary. Not only having they given passing grades to both herd and habitat health, they also have had the goal of supposed STABILIZATION not reduction. But apparently you cannot seem to stand that.

Perhaps you'd like to try and explain that extremist position? Why is it when EVERYONE states an area DOESNT need fewer deer, even including pgc, YOU seem to believe otherwise...

Just looking out for us hunters and improving our sport I guess.[8D]

Cornelius08

"By the way,as usual,I was right and cornelius was wrong."

Try...For the first time in your life. And that is only partially true on technicality. I said it wasnt a factor, but should have said it wasnt a SIGNIFICANT consideration, since the data DOESNT carry much weight as proven by the fact the adult doe breeding is given far more weight since the herd health overall wasnt and never had been rated as poor according to pgc.

"It also clearly states that 2A the fawns in 2A had one of the worst reproductive rates in the state."

And that the adult does breeding more than made up for it when it came to getting a passing grade apparently. Adult breeding rate better than the average for the state overall.

Also noteworthy,in 2A the amount of surveyed plots with acceptable regeneration (data collected from 2001-04 when the herd wasMUCH higher in the wmu) was 10th best in the state. Well above the average, and in an area withsupposedlyone of the highest deer densities.

So the only thing shown, here and across many areas of the state, is that the need for extreme reduction was absolutely unnecessary. And the plan is a miserable failure.

Also noteworthy, itsfunny that 2A has supposedly so many deer, LIke 2b who managed 94 fawns to checkyet they could only muster a sample size of in 2A... (LOL) which was pretty low compared to even some "lesser" wmus on the list.

DougE

No they haven't.They've rated it as satisfactory,not excellent as you a claim.That's also after the herd has been reduced by more than 50% as you claim.

Wow are you now stating that the PGC is not trying top reduce the herd in 2A or are you changing your position to suit your lame argumenet?

2G has the worst habitat in the state do to decades of having too many deer.Interestingly,the 3.5 year old does were slightly more productive that the 3.5 year old does in 2A and the fawn conception rate was just as bad.It looks like the more recentincrease in the deer population was starting to take it's toll on both the habitat and the health of the herd.

Cornelius08

"No they haven't.They've rated it as satisfactory,not excellent as you a claim.That's also after the herd has been reduced by more than 50% as you claim."

And it was not rated as "poor" prior to that either.

"Wow are you now stating that the PGC is not trying top reduce the herd in 2A or are you changing your position to suit your lame argumenet? "

My position has been the exact same and never changed and you know it. You are just taking offense at your "extremism" being pointed out blantantly. As you well know, pgcs STATED GOAL is stabilization... IVe also said that it is a LIE. It doesnt take 55000 and 60,000 antlerless allocation to "stabilize" a smaller herd when previously only 45k was needed to reduce a larger herd approx 7% according to pgc. According to pgcs "science" and data more reduction even according to them is not needed....But it is occurring anyway due to rediculously inappropriate allocation.


"2G has the worst habitat in the state do to decades of having too many deer.Interestingly,the 3.5 year old does were slightly more productive that the 3.5 year old does in 2A "

I agree. And that alone show that pgc wants FAR fewer deer in 2G than there could be and should be.

BTW, I wouldnt put too much stock in addressing herd health on fawn data and 38 total fawns for the ENTIRE HUGE UNIT.... Especially when such a sample size would have a difference of approx SIX fawns difference between 8% bred and 30% deemed as "good". With a total of 38 fawns, only 6 more of those had to be pregnant.... SIX....(LOL)

How about some of the other wmus that didnt even have 30... Some only had SIX to start with in the first place!!! some 15.....19 etc. Thats a joke! (LOL) If Im not mistaken, isnt that why pgc is being sued?

"It looks like the more recentincrease in the deer population was starting to take it's toll on both the habitat and the health of the herd."

We still have far fewer deer than previously. The habitat data was also collected from 2001 to 2004. The herd has been reduced even furthersince 2004, it had to of. Alsoif the data were collected earlier in that range, then the herd would have been higher yet, andfar from being cut in half compared to the late nineties. The habitat health hasnt changed. Always been good in sw pa.

bluebird2

Maybe Doug would like to explain why cutting the herd by over 50% in 2G and implementing ARs didn't improve fawn breeding rates.

Cornelius08

Im guessing he sees it as needing more deer kilt! (LOL) Thats the answer statewide for every ailment we face.

Screamin Steel

It is pretty much accepted doctrine in the deer hunting community that there is an October "mini rut" that occurs approximately near the third week in October when a FEW does come into estrous ahead of the rest. These are predominantly older does. Their early conception date lends toward their fawns achieving higher body weight going into winter contributing no doubt to higher survival rates among their fawns compared to fawns conceived in November and especially later. The removal of many of these older does (HR) has no doubt contributed to lower recruitment. Embryo studies by the PGC showed over 80% concetion between Oct 15 and December 15, if I remember the dates correctly. Make no mistake that some breeding occurs in late October and it is by the older does in the herd. Fair enough answer, or do we need to provide some links to back it up?

DougE

Geeze bb.I guess fawn breedingrates are only important when they fit your agenda.In any event,the answer is simple,The habitat is very poor accross much of 2G.Fawn recruitment is very bad in many places.