Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
12-27-2008, 11:13 PM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
ORIGINAL: bawanajim
Dead dear hates facts they interfere with his fallacies.
Dead dear hates facts they interfere with his fallacies.
12-28-2008, 06:03 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
He was quick to change the course when a problem surfaced. An example that comes to mind was the one year experiment with having a one day concurrent buck doe season on the last day of the old buck season. It caused an exceptionally high buck kill that day and was never done again.
Now there is a prime example of twisting the facts. Alt increased the antlerless season from 4 days in 2000 to 12 days in 2002 and BTB claims he did it to reduce the buck harvest. That has to qualify as the all time best at twisting the facts to suit an agenda. Furthermore, BTB is the only one I know of who is still denying that breeding rates decreased significantly ,even though the PGC stats clearly showed it did in fact happen.
12-28-2008, 07:27 AM
#25
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RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
Gary Alt spearheaded very little. He was a frontman and little else imho.
At first I thought he was a good guy for the job, charismatic, a decent speaker, seemingly sincere.
Then toward the end, started finding out he was tighter than two coats of paint with groups like Audubon etc. They still speak of him VERY highly to this day. A web search for audubon and Gary Alt will confirm that for any doubters.
He also started to become over the top. With wild claims of absolutely impossible buck to doe ratios that never existed. Made rediculous statements like "When I saw the shape the forest was in it drove me to my knees!"[:'(][:'(] Even though he had been a biologist and in those forests for DECADES prior to that! He also began demanding that we have ALTERNATIVE funding to remove hunters as far as possible from the decision making, and so reductions could go to extremes unabated.
When Alt left, he said he was doing so because of political pressure and he felt pgc was not "staying the course" in the way of reduction. Even though, at the time, the allocation was still EXTREMELY high.
After seeing all this and more, enough was enough. The guy was a straight up kook, and his leaving was one of the very few bright spots that can be pointed to in the last several years as far as anything about deer management in Pa is concerned.
Gary Alt spearheaded very little. He was a frontman and little else imho.
At first I thought he was a good guy for the job, charismatic, a decent speaker, seemingly sincere.
Then toward the end, started finding out he was tighter than two coats of paint with groups like Audubon etc. They still speak of him VERY highly to this day. A web search for audubon and Gary Alt will confirm that for any doubters.
He also started to become over the top. With wild claims of absolutely impossible buck to doe ratios that never existed. Made rediculous statements like "When I saw the shape the forest was in it drove me to my knees!"[:'(][:'(] Even though he had been a biologist and in those forests for DECADES prior to that! He also began demanding that we have ALTERNATIVE funding to remove hunters as far as possible from the decision making, and so reductions could go to extremes unabated.
When Alt left, he said he was doing so because of political pressure and he felt pgc was not "staying the course" in the way of reduction. Even though, at the time, the allocation was still EXTREMELY high.
After seeing all this and more, enough was enough. The guy was a straight up kook, and his leaving was one of the very few bright spots that can be pointed to in the last several years as far as anything about deer management in Pa is concerned.
As for the PGC winding up taking alternate funding, the USP lawsuit and the very vocal efforts ofa minisculepercentage of hunters may cause exactly that.Seems pretty stupid to me that folks who think the PGc doesn't listen to hunters enough are the ones about to cause a door to open that we'll never close. Once the PGC gets put into a positionof takingtaxpayer money, hunter influence could very well deteriorate severely.
It'd be funny if it weren't so dangerous that Alts detractorscould very wellwind up being the very cause of a funding situation they criticized Alt for suggesting.
12-28-2008, 09:27 AM
#26
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RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
"Can you document in any way your contention that Alt made wild claims as to the buck doe ratios?"
Alt was an idiot and made the rediculous claims at every speaking engagement and every magazine review. Where were you? Living in a cave?
"As for the PGC winding up taking alternate funding, the USP lawsuit and the very vocal efforts ofa minisculepercentage of hunters may cause exactly that.Seems pretty stupid to me that folks who think the PGc doesn't listen to hunters enough are the ones about to cause a door to open that we'll never close."
Pgcwants alternate funding. So dont blame the hunters of Pa for their treachery.May also want to see Audubon society website to see who they share that view with. Big surprise there eh?
"Once the PGC gets put into a positionof takingtaxpayer money, hunter influence could very well deteriorate severely."
That which does not exist cannot deteriorate. Hunter influence currently is a nonissue. Its like bigfoot and ghosts. It doesnt exist.
Alt was an idiot and made the rediculous claims at every speaking engagement and every magazine review. Where were you? Living in a cave?
"As for the PGC winding up taking alternate funding, the USP lawsuit and the very vocal efforts ofa minisculepercentage of hunters may cause exactly that.Seems pretty stupid to me that folks who think the PGc doesn't listen to hunters enough are the ones about to cause a door to open that we'll never close."
Pgcwants alternate funding. So dont blame the hunters of Pa for their treachery.May also want to see Audubon society website to see who they share that view with. Big surprise there eh?
"Once the PGC gets put into a positionof takingtaxpayer money, hunter influence could very well deteriorate severely."
That which does not exist cannot deteriorate. Hunter influence currently is a nonissue. Its like bigfoot and ghosts. It doesnt exist.
12-28-2008, 09:31 AM
#27
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RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
From an old field and stream article:
"Reducing deer numbers, Alt says, will allow forest ecosystems to recover. In time, they'll be able to sustain healthier herds. This will also restore public confidence in hunters as wildlife managers. Without these measures, he adds, environmentalists, foresters, farmers, and other affected groups will increasingly look to means other than sport hunting to regulate the whitetail population.
The Results
Pennsylvania's revamped program appears to be succeeding. The doe harvest has increased by 65 percent, to an average of 315,000, whereas the buck kill has decreased by 24 percent, to about 154,000. The total harvests since 2000 have been the largest in the state's history. During that same time, the yearling-buck take has fallen from 85 percent of all bucks harvested to 57 percent, and the ratio of adult does to adult bucks has gone from 14 to 1 to almost 2 to 1."
Old article From the Philly Enquirer:
"Alt predicts taht hunters will kill about 375,000 does and 125,000 bucks this fall out of a total population of 1.3 million. Currently does outnumber bucks 2.5 to one and AMONG ADULT DEER, THE RATIO IS 10-1. He says he doesnt know what the ideal number should be......
"Reducing deer numbers, Alt says, will allow forest ecosystems to recover. In time, they'll be able to sustain healthier herds. This will also restore public confidence in hunters as wildlife managers. Without these measures, he adds, environmentalists, foresters, farmers, and other affected groups will increasingly look to means other than sport hunting to regulate the whitetail population.
The Results
Pennsylvania's revamped program appears to be succeeding. The doe harvest has increased by 65 percent, to an average of 315,000, whereas the buck kill has decreased by 24 percent, to about 154,000. The total harvests since 2000 have been the largest in the state's history. During that same time, the yearling-buck take has fallen from 85 percent of all bucks harvested to 57 percent, and the ratio of adult does to adult bucks has gone from 14 to 1 to almost 2 to 1."
Old article From the Philly Enquirer:
"Alt predicts taht hunters will kill about 375,000 does and 125,000 bucks this fall out of a total population of 1.3 million. Currently does outnumber bucks 2.5 to one and AMONG ADULT DEER, THE RATIO IS 10-1. He says he doesnt know what the ideal number should be......
12-28-2008, 09:48 AM
#28
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RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
Some of the most interesting snippets from Alt articles....AAAHHHH MEMORIES!(sigh)LOL..:
"Biologist Gary Alt is preaching the gospel of quality deer management in Pennsylvania. Some hunters are listening, some hunters are angry. That's why he wears a bulletproof vest."
At the time, I was one who was listening, not angry.
"The most controversial man in Pennsylvania, Dr. Gary Alt, and I are slouched in chairs in a quiet conference room in Harrisburg, while downstairs a thousand deer hunters are taking turns telling the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) just what they think of Alt, the state's deer-management specialist."
"Last year, in order to push through a combined buck and doe season, Alt stood in front of assemblies of as many as 10,000 aggravated sportsmen like some besieged president trying to sell the masses his agenda. Alt has had angry men (including the leaders of the 60,000-member Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania) accuse him of trying to rid the state of deer."
"He's spotted a few serious-looking guys who've pushed back their coat jackets to display shoulder holsters. And some detractors have even sold T-shirts at his appearances bearing the slogan "Osama bin Alt." As a result, Alt has neatly hidden a bulletproof vest under his button-down shirt and has been compelled to come into speaking engagements through side doors with fierce-looking bodyguards."
"Short and stout and shiny on top, Alt looks more like Seinfeld's George Costanza than a visionary smasher of the status quo.At best his stature and ambition make you think "Napoleon complex"-he's been accused of it before-"
Gee, imagine that!
"In fact, the only reason Alt hasn't proposed a season or two with no buck hunting at all is the fact that biologists who tried to protect Pennsylvania's bucks back in 1928 and 1938 were fired in the ensuing public outcries."
"Alt holds up a four-point set of antlers and says, "This is the average buck shot today in Pennsylvania." Then he holds up an eight-point rack and says, "This is what that same buck on average will look like after one more year." Finally, he holds up a large 10-point rack and declares, "This is what that four-point would look like at three-and-a-half years of age."
" This is what the state's 1.6 million deer are doing to our forests."
"Alt explains, "The herd needs to be reduced, but not statewide: It needs to be done strategically."
Ha ha ha. Howd that work out?[:'(] I must need glasses. I read that as saying NOT statewide.
"Sharpshooters are already working in our suburbs; they could be here next."
scare tactics.
"A disgruntled sportsman doesn't wait for his cue to scream, "I've been hunting in this state for fifty-five years and I say you're dead wrong. You held up those big antlers to gain support, but I say you're going to decimate the herd. What you're really holding up is an empty hand."
Amen sir. Amen. I disagreed at the time, but I guess hindsight is 20-20.
"Could those big deer on the covers of magazines and the monster bucks on those Saturday morning hunting shows have fueled a push for something better? Can such a grand scheme work? Alt thinks so."
Now all he has to do is prove it."
But instead he "ran off" just before the plan was proven a miserable failure.
"Biologist Gary Alt is preaching the gospel of quality deer management in Pennsylvania. Some hunters are listening, some hunters are angry. That's why he wears a bulletproof vest."
At the time, I was one who was listening, not angry.
"The most controversial man in Pennsylvania, Dr. Gary Alt, and I are slouched in chairs in a quiet conference room in Harrisburg, while downstairs a thousand deer hunters are taking turns telling the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) just what they think of Alt, the state's deer-management specialist."
"Last year, in order to push through a combined buck and doe season, Alt stood in front of assemblies of as many as 10,000 aggravated sportsmen like some besieged president trying to sell the masses his agenda. Alt has had angry men (including the leaders of the 60,000-member Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania) accuse him of trying to rid the state of deer."
"He's spotted a few serious-looking guys who've pushed back their coat jackets to display shoulder holsters. And some detractors have even sold T-shirts at his appearances bearing the slogan "Osama bin Alt." As a result, Alt has neatly hidden a bulletproof vest under his button-down shirt and has been compelled to come into speaking engagements through side doors with fierce-looking bodyguards."
"Short and stout and shiny on top, Alt looks more like Seinfeld's George Costanza than a visionary smasher of the status quo.At best his stature and ambition make you think "Napoleon complex"-he's been accused of it before-"
Gee, imagine that!
"In fact, the only reason Alt hasn't proposed a season or two with no buck hunting at all is the fact that biologists who tried to protect Pennsylvania's bucks back in 1928 and 1938 were fired in the ensuing public outcries."
"Alt holds up a four-point set of antlers and says, "This is the average buck shot today in Pennsylvania." Then he holds up an eight-point rack and says, "This is what that same buck on average will look like after one more year." Finally, he holds up a large 10-point rack and declares, "This is what that four-point would look like at three-and-a-half years of age."
" This is what the state's 1.6 million deer are doing to our forests."
"Alt explains, "The herd needs to be reduced, but not statewide: It needs to be done strategically."
Ha ha ha. Howd that work out?[:'(] I must need glasses. I read that as saying NOT statewide.
"Sharpshooters are already working in our suburbs; they could be here next."
scare tactics.
"A disgruntled sportsman doesn't wait for his cue to scream, "I've been hunting in this state for fifty-five years and I say you're dead wrong. You held up those big antlers to gain support, but I say you're going to decimate the herd. What you're really holding up is an empty hand."
Amen sir. Amen. I disagreed at the time, but I guess hindsight is 20-20.
"Could those big deer on the covers of magazines and the monster bucks on those Saturday morning hunting shows have fueled a push for something better? Can such a grand scheme work? Alt thinks so."
Now all he has to do is prove it."
But instead he "ran off" just before the plan was proven a miserable failure.
12-28-2008, 10:30 AM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,167
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
So am I reading this right,you feel that Gary Alt and a small group of his followers set out with a goal to destroy deer hunting in PA? Am I reading you on this right? If so what would his reasons be?
I am no fan of the P.G.C. or Alts herd reduction programs.
That being said I live in Crawford county and we have some of the best habitat in the state. Yet I have not seen a Ruffed Grouse in this area for years. Why?
AM I happy with the state of hunting in PA , No? But I see no good in personally destroying people when Its a program you don't support. This is not the way to change it.
I feel the same frustration that many others feel yet when youmake it a personal battle you loose every time.
I am no fan of the P.G.C. or Alts herd reduction programs.
That being said I live in Crawford county and we have some of the best habitat in the state. Yet I have not seen a Ruffed Grouse in this area for years. Why?
AM I happy with the state of hunting in PA , No? But I see no good in personally destroying people when Its a program you don't support. This is not the way to change it.
I feel the same frustration that many others feel yet when youmake it a personal battle you loose every time.