Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
12-31-2008, 04:10 PM
#101
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
The problem isn't too many bear and coyotes eating too many fawns. The problem is too few adult doe producing fawns . Alt said that the combined effects of HR and Ars would be higher breeding rates and a shorter breeding window,so the predators would be overwhelmed by the shear number of fawns and fawn survival rates would increase. But breeding rates declined, the breeding period remained unchanged and the PGC is still issuing more antlerless tags than in 2000 and 2001 when we had 1.6M PS deer.
Don't blame the coyotes and bears when the problem is the PGC deer management plan.
Don't blame the coyotes and bears when the problem is the PGC deer management plan.
12-31-2008, 06:54 PM
#103
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
ORIGINAL: Buck Hunter 1
Coyotes will only breed enough to create the pack. They will not over breed where it causes food shortages for the pack. You will never kill them off unless you bounty them. I hunt them year round and kill the h_ _l out of them. I hunt them in 2 states and I can honestly say I have never seen a shortage of them I put them as the smartest game animal in the woods today. That of course is my opinion. You will only get one set up on them and they will never appraoch a set like that again. Bears are becoming more prevealnt out theere but i do not beleive they have the numbers to even the coyote deprivation like the Yote! Sheer Numbers don't add up? I willl give credit to stray dogs, farm dogs etc. I have been known to pop them when they are where they don't belong. Yesy, I have hunting dogs, but they are trained and in check!! Not loose! Coyotes, that is your cu;prit!
Coyotes will only breed enough to create the pack. They will not over breed where it causes food shortages for the pack. You will never kill them off unless you bounty them. I hunt them year round and kill the h_ _l out of them. I hunt them in 2 states and I can honestly say I have never seen a shortage of them I put them as the smartest game animal in the woods today. That of course is my opinion. You will only get one set up on them and they will never appraoch a set like that again. Bears are becoming more prevealnt out theere but i do not beleive they have the numbers to even the coyote deprivation like the Yote! Sheer Numbers don't add up? I willl give credit to stray dogs, farm dogs etc. I have been known to pop them when they are where they don't belong. Yesy, I have hunting dogs, but they are trained and in check!! Not loose! Coyotes, that is your cu;prit!
I think most all of us were totally surprised to learn exactly how much bears prey on whitetail fawns. I don't blame you for being skeptical about the claim that bears kill as many fawns as the yotes do but It was documented quite well that bears and coyotes are just about equallyeffective in killing fawns. During the two year fawn mortality study, the mortality tally from both was amazingly close.
Here's a link to the summary of the study.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/deer/pdf/fawn_survival.pdf
If you really want some enjoyable reading, they published the biweekly journals throughout the study. It will take some time to get through it but it is well worth it. The last entry is at the top so you gotta start from the bottom up and start with the first 2000 entry.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=152897
12-31-2008, 07:22 PM
#104
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
Coyotes,bear and bobcats have been preying on fawns for at least the past 30 Years. But during that period the herd increased to a record of 1.6M PS deer in 2000. The combined effects of predation,poor habitat and the harvests by hunters were not sufficient to limit the herd until the PGC implemented the current seasons with over 1M doe tags plus 30K DMAP tags.
Predation is not the problem.the habitat is not the problem ,but the doe tag allocations are the problem.
Predation is not the problem.the habitat is not the problem ,but the doe tag allocations are the problem.
12-31-2008, 09:26 PM
#105
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Coyotes,bear and bobcats have been preying on fawns for at least the past 30 Years. But during that period the herd increased to a record of 1.6M PS deer in 2000. The combined effects of predation,poor habitat and the harvests by hunters were not sufficient to limit the herd until the PGC implemented the current seasons with over 1M doe tags plus 30K DMAP tags.
Predation is not the problem.the habitat is not the problem ,but the doe tag allocations are the problem.
Coyotes,bear and bobcats have been preying on fawns for at least the past 30 Years. But during that period the herd increased to a record of 1.6M PS deer in 2000. The combined effects of predation,poor habitat and the harvests by hunters were not sufficient to limit the herd until the PGC implemented the current seasons with over 1M doe tags plus 30K DMAP tags.
Predation is not the problem.the habitat is not the problem ,but the doe tag allocations are the problem.
if you have 3 doe now and had 6 doe then,why would the number of fawns be any different ,like 3 fawns now vrs 6 fawns then.
are you saying because of less doe that is reason you dont see fawns,i am a little lost on your thinking.
01-01-2009, 05:25 AM
#106
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
ORIGINAL: sproulman
how do you figure the doe tags are problem.
if you have 3 doe now and had 6 doe then,why would the number of fawns be any different ,like 3 fawns now vrs 6 fawns then.
are you saying because of less doe that is reason you dont see fawns,i am a little lost on your thinking.
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
Coyotes,bear and bobcats have been preying on fawns for at least the past 30 Years. But during that period the herd increased to a record of 1.6M PS deer in 2000. The combined effects of predation,poor habitat and the harvests by hunters were not sufficient to limit the herd until the PGC implemented the current seasons with over 1M doe tags plus 30K DMAP tags.
Predation is not the problem.the habitat is not the problem ,but the doe tag allocations are the problem.
Coyotes,bear and bobcats have been preying on fawns for at least the past 30 Years. But during that period the herd increased to a record of 1.6M PS deer in 2000. The combined effects of predation,poor habitat and the harvests by hunters were not sufficient to limit the herd until the PGC implemented the current seasons with over 1M doe tags plus 30K DMAP tags.
Predation is not the problem.the habitat is not the problem ,but the doe tag allocations are the problem.
if you have 3 doe now and had 6 doe then,why would the number of fawns be any different ,like 3 fawns now vrs 6 fawns then.
are you saying because of less doe that is reason you dont see fawns,i am a little lost on your thinking.
I've had his posts blocked for a few weeks now and your quote reinforces my decision. He's not interested in a valid debate. His posts aren't worth responding to because he'll never even try to see even a fraction of any other point of view. No matter what is posted by anyone, he dismisses many valid pointsand simply says the PGC is killing too many deer. He can't comprehend any other issue beyond that. To suggest that coyotes are no more of an issue than they were 30 years ago istotally delusional. Our bear population is much higher then 30 years ago as well. As a matter of fact, bear season was closed in 1978 because numbers were so low at that time. Anyone can recognize that tag allocations alone are not the whole problem. Poor habitat and predation ARE part of the mix and to deny that is to bury ones head in the sand. For example, there will always be spotty areas within the WMU's (no matter how small we would have them) where some hunter responsibilty is needed in terms of refraining fromoverharvesting. We have situations like that in 2B where the overall population is very high. His answer to every problem is that the PGC and their doe tag allocations are to blame 100%.
Bluebird expects our deer to be managed as one big statewide deer farm with no regard for other species and no regard for the property owners that absorb the costs of supporting our wildlife. As long as he clings to that mentality,it's kind of useless to debate him or ask where he;s coming from.
01-01-2009, 06:10 AM
#107
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
if you have 3 doe now and had 6 doe then,why would the number of fawns be any different ,like 3 fawns now vrs 6 fawns then.
Yotes and bears have been killing fawns in 2G for many years, but when densities were higher their impact on the herd was much less. The habitat didn't change and the predator population didn't change significantly from 2002 to 2007 yet the buck harvest dropped from 10,100 in 2002 to 5,100 in 2007. The harvest didn't drop because bears and yotes killed too many fawns, it dropped because the PGC encouraged hunters to harvest too many doe.
01-01-2009, 09:41 AM
#108
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
Its only common sense. The fewer deer you have in the first place, the more significant are the losses of predation towards overall numbers and future recruitment.
With good deer numbers, predation is a nonissue, as there is plenty to go 'round. When you have rock bottom deer numbers, every fawn counts.
"For example, there will always be spotty areas within the WMU's (no matter how small we would have them) where some hunter responsibilty is needed in terms of refraining fromoverharvesting."
Nearly statewide does not equal "spotty". Spotty would accurately describe the areas that actually have deer numbers close to or at levels they should and can be. The widespread blanket reduction did not effect those few areas due to off limits lands, and or other restrictions that don't allow the plans mal-effects to be realized there.
With good deer numbers, predation is a nonissue, as there is plenty to go 'round. When you have rock bottom deer numbers, every fawn counts.
"For example, there will always be spotty areas within the WMU's (no matter how small we would have them) where some hunter responsibilty is needed in terms of refraining fromoverharvesting."
Nearly statewide does not equal "spotty". Spotty would accurately describe the areas that actually have deer numbers close to or at levels they should and can be. The widespread blanket reduction did not effect those few areas due to off limits lands, and or other restrictions that don't allow the plans mal-effects to be realized there.
01-01-2009, 04:14 PM
#109
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: 3c pa
Posts: 1,212
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
alright for argument sake how is it the hunters resonabilty not to shoot the does the pgc gives
tags out for them they have wildlife bios how come its expected the hunters to be smarter then
the pros
tags out for them they have wildlife bios how come its expected the hunters to be smarter then
the pros
01-01-2009, 04:29 PM
#110
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Do you agree with extent of Herd Reduction in Pa?
PGC supporters only want hunters to manage the herd so they have an excuse for the excessive allocation of doe tags in most WMUs. The average hunter has no idea whether there are too many deer, too few deer or the right number in the area they hunt. If there is no snow on the ground even experienced hunters don't know how many deer there are in a given area. The bottom line is the PGC is in charge of managing the herd and they are solely responsible for the fact that the buck harvest has dropped by 46%.