More Spin From RSB
#31
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: More Spin From RSB
I've seen major changes in habitat in the last 10 yrs where I hunt. Corn and alfalfa fields have turned to golden rod. This was good during the mid to late 90s, but by 2002-2003 it started to make an impact on the overall deer population. We had some brutal winters from 92-98, but the deer population was as high as ever. The 90s still had a good blend of ag and wild secession. But, most of the ag went completely away 2002-2005. Guess what, 5-10 yrs ago it wasn't uncommon to see 6-8 different bucks (with a couple 2.5-3.5 yo mixed in) and 12-15 does during a bow season, now I literally see half as many. Multiply this by 3 or 4 different properties I hunt. That was a lot of deer. Most of the does had twins or triplets 10 yrs ago, now I see 1.5-2.5 yo does that are just wondering around without fawns. The does that do have fawns only have one. What changed? They aren't killing that many more does in my area. They aren't giving the does abortions. They have simply fallen back to the caring capacity. This can happen quicker than you think
Again, if doe kill is the only factor, why does the deer population continue to flurish in Ohio(liberal doe kill), and why aren't the Adirondacks (almost no does killed) crawling with deer? My brother lives in Ohio on 80 acres, has killed over 15 does the last 3 years, and his overall doe population is increasing. His has a perfect blend of ag and natural habitat. He and his neighbors can't kill enough does. Almost all of the does have twins and triplets in the spring.
#32
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Owego, NY
Posts: 61
RE: More Spin From RSB
I'm trying to tell you, even if they never killed another doe in these areas, you may not see a significant population increase...ever. I don't expect to see 100+ deer a season like I did 10-12 years ago. If I see 30% of that in a season, I'm happy. As long as I see the right one. NY, PA, OH, or Venus, it all works the same, no food, no deer. Throw in a little extra predation from coyotes on fawns, and the population balances out. Granted you could wipe out the population with unlimited hunting, but we have seasons, most of which haven't changed dramatically in the past 20 yrs. Golden rod is not as nutritious as corn, soy beans, clover and alfalfa. In forested habits, a good mast crop a couple years in row might give you a little boost in deer population. But deer have to compete with squirrel, turkey, chipmunks, mice, and other birds for mast.
Part of this is sociological, people want to see deer even if they can't kill them. Its a bragging thing, "I saw 30 deer this year" sounds better than "I only saw 8 deer this year". Is the guy who saw 30 a better hunter than the guy who saw 8? Many people wrongly think so. It boils down to whats best for the overall herd, not the hunter.
Its funny, many people on this board fear Obama's socialist regulation of government, i.e. guns. Yet we want the government to tell us which deer to shoot (AR). Huh? A bit ironic. Like I said, deer managment is at the tip of your trigger finger.
Part of this is sociological, people want to see deer even if they can't kill them. Its a bragging thing, "I saw 30 deer this year" sounds better than "I only saw 8 deer this year". Is the guy who saw 30 a better hunter than the guy who saw 8? Many people wrongly think so. It boils down to whats best for the overall herd, not the hunter.
Its funny, many people on this board fear Obama's socialist regulation of government, i.e. guns. Yet we want the government to tell us which deer to shoot (AR). Huh? A bit ironic. Like I said, deer managment is at the tip of your trigger finger.
#33
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: More Spin From RSB
I'm trying to tell you, even if they never killed another doe in these areas, you may not see a significant population increase...ever.
#34
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Owego, NY
Posts: 61
RE: More Spin From RSB
Define over harvest as it pertains to the area you are talking about. Can you prove the population is significantly below carrying capacity? Again, you miss the point, even with an excess harvest, deer populations will bounce back within 2-3 seasons if optimal habitat exists. Did you ever think the population was too high, and a correction was needed for the available habitat and a healthier herd? Maybe things are closer to what the proper balance should be.
AR's work great if you want to kill off the 2.5-3.5 bucks just when they're getting to a good breeding age. That's it, kill the basket racks, and let the forks and spikes breed the does. It's stupid to regulate "what" you kill, it much more important to limit how many bucks you kill. In most states, including my state of NY the buck harvest is way too high. If your interested in better bucks only 2 things work:
1 buck per season and self control.
AR's work great if you want to kill off the 2.5-3.5 bucks just when they're getting to a good breeding age. That's it, kill the basket racks, and let the forks and spikes breed the does. It's stupid to regulate "what" you kill, it much more important to limit how many bucks you kill. In most states, including my state of NY the buck harvest is way too high. If your interested in better bucks only 2 things work:
1 buck per season and self control.
#35
RE: More Spin From RSB
OMW... Carrying capacity is the key.. my farm has been overbrowsed for years... the deer get so hungry they eat the cat food on the porch... PA is the most backwards place I have ever lived when it comes to change... Gary Alt was right.. and he was not permitted to finish... no one bothered him on bears when he was fixing that and now due to his efforts there are plenty of bear.. Deer get some much attention they caused focus that drove him out.. I don't blame the man...
I have hunted all over and PA is still in Jurasic Park with regards to deer management... Doe reduction is needed.. It helps.. I have seen and harvested better bucks on our farm over the last 6 yrs than ever before.... All the BS about no deer is just that...BS...
Look at states where the deer herd is managed for quality.... or elk in Colorado vs other states Colorado is managed for volume not quality with the exception of a few areas... they got plenty of elk but not a lot of biggins...New Mexico humm.. biggins...
hell you guys re-elected Murtha again... and he called us all rednecks and racists... talk about an idiot... let the biologists do their jobs and deal with it for a few years.. it will be better... Georgia kills a ton of does.. you get7 doe tags and a buck.. .. Alabama look at those rules... we have plenty of deer in PA..
I have hunted all over and PA is still in Jurasic Park with regards to deer management... Doe reduction is needed.. It helps.. I have seen and harvested better bucks on our farm over the last 6 yrs than ever before.... All the BS about no deer is just that...BS...
Look at states where the deer herd is managed for quality.... or elk in Colorado vs other states Colorado is managed for volume not quality with the exception of a few areas... they got plenty of elk but not a lot of biggins...New Mexico humm.. biggins...
hell you guys re-elected Murtha again... and he called us all rednecks and racists... talk about an idiot... let the biologists do their jobs and deal with it for a few years.. it will be better... Georgia kills a ton of does.. you get7 doe tags and a buck.. .. Alabama look at those rules... we have plenty of deer in PA..
#36
RE: More Spin From RSB
Sounds like bluebird was the campaign manager for Murtha... dude you are so far from on track...try reading a book... USA Today is not an dictionary.... his data is very very moving..
PA is not an agricultural state.. I live in a farming area and our farm along with all of the others on our road are shut down.. we boys left and had to get jobs to pay for stuff... along my road over 2500 acres is DORMANT... nothing but weeds.. Acorns are not every year... years ago when you are citing your stats there was a far greater agricultural base and farming left food..... Now that is dead..
Our state is like Ill or Ohio but minus the volume of farming... Have you hunted in Ill or Ohio?? It is fantastic....
I'm tired of this.. BS... that is why I left there some many years ago... I kept the farm but with progress like this it will probably be a subdivision soon...
PA is not an agricultural state.. I live in a farming area and our farm along with all of the others on our road are shut down.. we boys left and had to get jobs to pay for stuff... along my road over 2500 acres is DORMANT... nothing but weeds.. Acorns are not every year... years ago when you are citing your stats there was a far greater agricultural base and farming left food..... Now that is dead..
Our state is like Ill or Ohio but minus the volume of farming... Have you hunted in Ill or Ohio?? It is fantastic....
I'm tired of this.. BS... that is why I left there some many years ago... I kept the farm but with progress like this it will probably be a subdivision soon...
#37
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
That only makes sense if breeding rates and recruitment were low when the deer densities were higher. But breeding rates and recruitment were good before the herd was reduced and didn't improve after the herd was reduced. Therefore, the low number of fawns recruited was directly related to the decrease in over wintering doe and not due to poor habitat.
Why was recruitment low??? Maybe habitat was able to support few deer.
You don’t have a clue what you are talking about.
Breeding rates and fawn recruitment were both horrible in many areas of the state prior to antler restrictions.
Fawn recruitment is still horrible in much of the state though it and the breeding rates have improved some in this part of the state. The recruitment rates are still almost completely influenced by the annual changes in the winter and environmental conditions for the year though.
That is exactly what the map and data I presented in the beginning of this topic proved even though you obviously weren’t open minded or intelligent enough to grasp it.
R. S. Bodenhorn
#38
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
RE: More Spin From RSB
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
And , I am telling you that you have no idea what you are talking about, because the history of the herd proves you are dead wrong. if they hadn't over harvested the doe in 2G the herd would have increased just as it did in the past and there is nothing you can cite to refute that claim.
I'm trying to tell you, even if they never killed another doe in these areas, you may not see a significant population increase...ever.
No the history of the herd, the harvests and the habitat prove he is right and you are wrong.
It is obvious that cnyguy and cuernos1 are both light years ahead of you in their knowledge of sound wildlife management principles. BT bowhunter and DCE had proven they are light year ahead of you a long time ago as well.
R.S. Bodenhorn
#39
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: More Spin From RSB
No the history of the herd, the harvests and the habitat prove he is right and you are wrong.
Fawn recruitment is still horrible in much of the state though it and the breeding rates have improved some in this part of the state. The recruitment rates are still almost completely influenced by the annual changes in the winter and environmental conditions for the year though.
That is exactly what the map and data I presented in the beginning of this topic proved even though you obviously weren’t open minded or intelligent enough to grasp it.
That is exactly what the map and data I presented in the beginning of this topic proved even though you obviously weren’t open minded or intelligent enough to grasp it.
The PGC experts say that based on breeding rates , the herd is at it's target goal for herd health in all but one WMU,so once again you are just blowing smoke. The only reason recruitment is horrible in 2G is because there are so few OW doe producing fawns.
If fawn recruitment is as terrible as you claim, why isn't the PGC trying to reduce the herd even more in order to improve recruitment? Could the answer be that it didn't work in the past ,so there is no reason to expect it to work now?
#40
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: More Spin From RSB
Define over harvest as it pertains to the area you are talking about. Can you prove the population is significantly below carrying capacity? Again, you miss the point, even with an excess harvest, deer populations will bounce back within 2-3 seasons if optimal habitat exists. Did you ever think the population was too high, and a correction was needed for the available habitat and a healthier herd? Maybe things are closer to what the proper balance should be
Even with optimal habitat a population will not recover when the PGC issues enough antlerless tags to produce a harvest that equals or exceed recruitment.