DougE

First of all,I have no idea what you mean by anything being a gamble.You are correct that the PGC was put in place to preserve hunting.Part of that preservation includes protecting the habitat.Unfortunately,hunters demanded way too many deer for way too long and now the habitat is all but destroyed in vast areas accross Pa.The PGG did exactly what needed to be done by reducing the herd.There's reams and reams of scientific evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that deer are the most significant factor impacting our forests.I can get into with you in much more detail but frankly,I'm sick and tired of doing it.The bottom line is,the PGC has all the proof they need to back up their herd reduction efforts.The PGC is also responsible to manage all other wildlife in this state.that's why they aren't called the Pa deer commission.The deer have negatively impacted the habitat in such a way that it's impacting the survival and well being of many other species of wildlife.The manage deer above the carrying capacity of theland would be irresponsible as a wildlife agency,charged with protecting all wildlife.

It costs money to operate a wildlife agency and reducing the funding does nothing but take away from programs designed to benefit hunting and the game.Anyone that lobbies to see that happen is not a sportsman and quite frankly,doesn't even deserve to hunt.

sproulman

i bet you were one of those kids with a bar of soap in your mouth all time

sproulman

doug, you cant have habitat that is great for deer when you have MAPLES shading ground and DCNR that will not cut them for at least another 50/100 yrs.

the deer did not cause that.

Pawildman

The DCNR timber sales around our camp had many, many maple trees harvested along with black cherry. What was not harvested was oak.

sproulman

thats good, that lets in sunshine..
if DCNR wouldopen up some of areas a little, that would help on growth and deer too.
over on rt144 renovo to snowshoe,i went on some rides .
i never saw such large ferns as i saw there.

maple trees are like pines all packed together.

on bright sunny day, no sunlight worth anything is hitting ground.

maples need cut and oaks should be left but money is in oaksand maybe with time, maples too.

you talked about cherry, now there is a lot of money..

potter county is full of cherry trees..

DougE

Sproulman,only about 40% of Pa's land mass consists of oak/hickory forestst.That means maples are a dominant species accoss most of the state.Italso just so happens that maplesare a preferred bropwwse species and they'll also grow in the shade.I'm not saying it's a good thing that maples are taking a stronghold in much of the state but they aren't the reason that the habitat is so poor.Also at this time,sugar maple is actually more valuable than red oak.

What the deer have caused Sproul is a total lack of understory.There should be a mid level shrub layer beneath a mature canopy.There's species such as hobblebush that have been absent for decades because the deer ate it all and now there's not even a seed source.Hobblebush was an excellent deer browse and itgrew well in the understory.

Wildman,I have a good buddy that's the district forester for DCNR near your camp.I spent a bunch of time with him this past fall checking out exclosures and timber sales.He showed me wuite a few areas where they were doing shelter wood cutsand the regeneration is so good,they don't even plan on fencing.He also showed me areas where they're doing pulpwood cuts to open up the understory and to remove less desirable species.Along the way,we also looked at some burned areas,both inside and outside of exclosures.DCNR has some experimental areaswhere they're doing studies with burns and herbicides for the US forest service.Pretty neat stuff.It's actually mind boggling when you see the science and planning that goes into even a small timber sale.Contrary to popular belief,these guys know what they're doing and they use all the lastest methods to manage the forests.The big challenge with that area is that the habitat was so poor for so long,it takes very few deer to continue have a negative impact.They had to fence all their cuts because when they would cut an area,all the deer would congregate because they had no other browse.Now that the herd has been reduced to around 10 dpsm,they're finally getting some regneration without having to fence.Most of that regeneration is higher on the ridges where the deer spend almost no time during periods of deer snow.

Pawildman

Doug... Yes, I am aware that there are more areas now that are not being fenced. I haven't seen a burned area yet, but I haven't been able to spend as much time up there lately as I used to. Hope that will change soon. That just says to me that the regeneration is going pretty well and the need for fencing is being minimized. I do feel that some of the first non-fenced areas were probably on an experimental basis to see how it goes.
I think I wrote in a previous post some time ago about my wife and I being at camp aone time last summer or fall when I saw a timberjack of some kind pulling a trailer with a sprayer on it through the previously timbered exclosures around camp. When the operation was nearing completion at the edge of our lease, I walked over and talked to the young forester who was in charge. He told me, if I'm not mistaken, that they were spraying to kill the ferns, and asked me if I had noticed an earlier site they had done not far from camp. I told him I knew where he meant, and later we took a ride over and looked. Sure enough, it was pretty open. We'll see how it looks at our place this spring.
You are also right about the deer congregating at timbered areas for the browse. If you want a chance at putting some meat in the freezer, hang around an active cut. When the saws stop, it's the same thing as ringing the dinner bell for the deer.

DougE

They usually go in and spray for fernsbefore they fence the area.The shelterwood cutsopen up the canopy a litle to allow light in so they get some advanced oak regeneration established beforemaking another cut.The regeneration isphenominal in a few of these areasnow that the herd has been reduced.I'll show you some of these spots if you come up in the spring time.It's actually pretty interesting and it's also impressive how much goes into timber management.Alot of peple think they should just have the Hatfields and Mccoys come up with their chainsaws and mow everything down.It's alot more complicated than that and they're mandated to do things a certain way.

Alot of times the deer are hitting those topswhile the saws are still running.

DennyF

I think that in some areas, deer have come to associate the sounds of chain saws and falling trees, with good chow becoming available. Especially in areas where some timbering (or other woodcutting),goes on almost every year.

Have alot of sugar maples around my cabin in NWTioga. It is probably the dominant species of regen.

During the times of rapidlyincreasing deer numbers there (80s/90s), most of the under canopylow regen got nibbled off over the winter and into early spring. End result waslittle or no mapleunderstory during the summers, as once had been the case. That understory is slowly coming back now and there are some areas of knee towaist high summerunderstory again, like there was back in the late 70s and before.

PABowhntr

Sorry I missed this thread earlier but this part immediately caught my eye. I posted about it over on HuntingPa but thought I would point it out here as well....

So, instead of restricting rifle use in an area with a huge population issue they decided to expand rifle opportunities.

I just do not understand what they were thinking.