PABowhntr

Somewhat related to this discussion...Mark's comments reminded me to mention something I found unusual this year...many, many anterless deer left to rot in the woods. The strangest thing was that they were all within 80 yards of several decent-sized roadways and one of them had been gutted and then left next to the gut pile. I found all of them on the local game lands on the 23rd of December...following the end of our rifle season.

I wanted to puke.

mhogan

Dale, reducing the herd to balance with the habitat is sound science that has been researched and documented with several studies, so I guess you are talking about AR. Pennsylvania's situation is unique in the world. No one else harvested as high a percent of the bucks or harvests more 1.5 year olds than we do. It would probably take a thousand years for this damage to become evident in the genes, but I think it is basic animal biology to know that nature never intended immature bucks to do the breeding. Just like all of the other species, but man, thank goodness, they are suppose battle to see who is the dominate male and gets the right to breed the females. That is how it should be for many reasons I'm sure you know of and would agree with if you didn't feel it was being forced on you. How do you believe it would hurt to restore this natural age strcture balance? We are doing buck and fetus studies that would tell us if it is the wrong way to go. Let's give them a few years to see how it works out.

cableguy119

My two cents are the AR is great.

The herd we hunt on private land is well out of proportion we counted at least 35 deer in our 400 acres that we hunt. We do push the deer using deer drives for Muzzleloader season. The farmer and his relatives sit during rifle and don't push the deer around, we also hunt this farm during archery. So we are pretty sure our count is accurate if we see 35 deer run out of section A running to section b or elsewhere that is not a complete count of the entire population in the area but it does show a high percentage of the deer in that area and after hunting this area for over 20 years we know the patterns of where they run, bed, feed etc...

We noticed out of the 35 Deer there were 2 Nice 8-10 point bucks, 1 six point buck, 1 4 pointer and a spike. That is 5 bucks and 30 baldies. Now we are sure that out of the 30 baldies there are some buttons mixed in to that group but I think it is safe to say that 20 are females. That would mean that for each of the 3 older 6 points or more anlered deer would be an approximately 6-7 does per buck. so 6-1 or 7-1 ratio is pretty high. Even if you counted a 4 point in there that decreases the ratio to 4 or 5 to 1. Still a bit high. Our estimate is that the 4 and the spike are probably 1.5 year olds the 6 might even fall into that category. My point being that the bucks do have a lot of does to be breed. And we know 2 legal bucks were and 6 does were harvested this year. Still figures into the ratio as really 5-1 We are anxious to see what the impact of letting the year olds live longer but are curious as to what happens next year or the year after once the initial bucks are now legal. Does that create a year of barely legal carnage eventually or does the herd establish its males so that then after the adjustment period there are now more older bucks?

Our theory is that the number/ratio stays about the same but the average age is a bit older. We think it will mean more looks at some smaller legal bucks in the first few years but should be nice to get more looks at antlers with the bow. We started our own QDM 3 years ago we agreed to let 4 pointers go 2 seasons ago and this year finally saw over 6 different deer with 8+ points at different stands and got to watch some great rutting activity this past fall.

So is our herd out of whack? You bet it is. We do take a few does each year. Is the age of our bucks a little older than in 1999 yes. Do we think the ratio should be what Gary Alt says no. We think the increased doe kill is detrimental to a point. Balance is good but what good are the boys without the females to keep them there? If Alt's ratio came into effect we could lose a ton of our bucks that we have selectively harvested for 2 years. They are animals and respond to instinct if herd of deer on adjoining properties has more does then they will follow their animal instaincts and run to them and vice versa.

Let them go to let them grow. But the boys won't stay if there are no does!
Wow that last line was a bit poetic.

Mr. Longbeard

I cant wait until there deer are bigger so that i can get my state back from all the pa hunters.. I cant even get a quality hunt anymore!!!

NorthJeff

We still had 7/14 guys connect on legal bucks, in the "small-buck" Federal forest, Aleghany Resevoir area, our camp average for the past several years (7bucks). Am extremely excited about next year!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

NorthJeff

Cablguy119,

For figuring Buckoe ratios, you don't count the fawns, only yearlings on up. If you have 5 bucks(including the 3 yearlings), then out of the remaining 30, how many are not fawns? Healthy areas are 2+ fawns per doe, with 1 per doe being pretty bad. Even if you look at 1.5 fawns per doe, with a few yearling does thrown in that were not bred, you probably only have about 15 does-maybe 10 adult, 5 yearlings, and 15 fawns. It looks like your ratio is probably about 1:3-not that bad. Your overall population numbers would probably be a little high, probably by 5-6 deer, if you have good habitat, cover, and food, just looking at a 40-45 deer per square mile-a little high, but not bad if you have the cover, food, and water.

It looks like you could thin a few of the adult does, bringing the average age and experience down a little to make the remaining younger does more reliant on your area, while bringing the average age of your bucks up, with maybe another 1 or 2 thrown in to help the sex ratio.

I don't think you are as bad off as you think!

Also, I had 6 different 8 points I had pictures of on my 130 acres I never actually saw all year, hunting or scouting! You'd be amazed what stays hidden in the older buck category, or leaves the property all together if you drive the heck out of it. Older bucks (2.5+), will not stay around if the property is driven, rarely, especially more than 1 time. Driving deer is probably the most detrimental action that can take place on a managed property. Driving deer is to management the same as arson is to a firefighter!

Other than the driving, your property sounds pretty good.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

cableguy119

North Jeff
Part of the property we hunt on is in a borough where you can't discharge a firearm so we have no options except to drive out some portions of it. You would be amazed at how many deer use certain areas as a safe haven. One area in our property in particular is about a half mile long strip about 150 Yards wide wooded area with the woods and a stream running through it. At one end is a busy highway, homes and businesses and at the other end 400 plus acres of corn. So starting at the road and pushing them out from the edge of town is almost a neccessity because this patch is such good habitat.

And like I said we don't drive it till late muzzleloading and I am not talking about 10 guys tearing through it either I am talking 2 guys going through really wide sections many break back on us.We know the pressure isn't the best thing, but as long as we don't completely force them through by having a wall of people walking through they actually stick in the woods. We had one of our hunters posting at the side of the drive and he saw 5 deer that broke back on us, 5 minutes later come back to the exact spot they were in when we came through.

Our estimation about on par with what you said about probably needing 5-6 less does. It is great habitat with cornfields, and 2 streams running though the property and good cover. Large patches of woods running along sides of fields and many patches in between.

Driving the woods 3 days in late muzzleloading season is not a crime. It isn't like we are a large hunting club with 20+ guys tearing through the woods with reckless abandon and folllowing a creedo of "brown and down"

We know the adjoining property owner (parcelled out his land to the developer) hunts with a large group of guys that shoots everything and we think that our herds large numbers in the late season is attributted to the deer being pressured by them.

Plus we know the property will be receiving more displaced animals in the coming years due to an adjoining 200 acres is being turned into a housing development and local school building planned for construction on nearby parcel. We know short term that we need to manage the numbers due the likely increase in other deer coming on our property. We have seen the average buck age on the land go up over the last 3 years and we are glad to see that.

And we want to see that trend continue how great it was this year seeing legal deer and passing on them. I can't wait to break out in nervous adreniine rush of seeing the big hoss of a buck coming towards me and possibly taking a shot at him with my bow.

The point is AR will only work if people let them, we know the loss of nearby habitat is going to affect our hunting property. How it affects it we can't say for sure. Will it mean more deer from there come over maybe. does it possibly isolate our herd a bit more yep. Does it mean our herd moves on to another place maybe but doubtful the corn, woods and stream aren't moving anytime soon so faced with the likelyhood of having more animals we had no choise but to think about what the future of our herd and property will be.

NorthJeff

Cableguy119,

You are right, that type of driving doesn't sound too bad, especially seeing as you probably aren't losing any deer from surrounding landowners, and it's not a season long activity.

Sounds like you guys have a great piece of property, with the herd just about in balance!

My goal on my property is to have a good portion of 2.5 year olds, with one or two older ones around every year. We(mostly I-my dad came up to hunt for 1.5 days last year) basically target the 2.5 year olds, if we feel like shooting one, but might hold out for a bigger one. Definately won't settle for a yearling though, whether it be a spike or 8 point. The rule on my property is 8-point or better for my dad, as he may make a mistake and shoot a yearling 8-point, but no one has ever seen a yearling 8-point around here.

Sounds like you are off to a great start, and the AR's are a great tool to helping you achieve your goal, and greatly reduce the harvest of yearlings on adjoining properties.

Now if MI will only take notice and............

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.