BTBowhunter

LOL

deer_handler

And that makes sence that these deer starved to death in a group? Yep they just gave up and they was hungry and died together. None of them left to look for food and they all died in this small area. What logic is that for us to think? Why would they stay together after one dies. Are they devoted to the dead one. Your saying at the exact time they all starved to death in these groups you all found. And you want people to believe this? For a deer not to get a mile away from a main road and die as it is hit by a car is like saying a deer can't run more than a hundred yards after it's been shot in the vitals. Are we hunters supposed to believe this especially archry and have witnessed these things our selfs. Do not deer use the same trails as other deers? And can this be the reason you find them together in an area dead? Like I said to many questions to be answered to say they had no food. I am sure all the deer in that area looked very skinny and just barely survived because of no food then. Got any pics to prove this to us? I didn't think so.

BTBowhunter

We can all see that your knowledge of deer and deer management is as good as your mastery of the english language and your spelling skills.

NorthPA

Come on Deer handler.
It is just too easy to make a joke out of your inadequate reasonings.
You obviously are lacking in knowledge when it comes to wintering deer.
I don't mean that as an insult, other than to say, you just have not learned these things yet.

Family groups of deer winter together and will experience the same affects of weather and lack of food. Deer are not people. They will not appoint one to go search for food and report back to us.
They are reluctant to leave yarding areas, possibly because of being in an already weakened state and realizing they are vunerable to predators and also because starvation is a cunning affliction. The onset of starvation is not necessarilly painful. Anyone who has fasted, by choice or circumstance, for pro-long periods, or anyone who has experienced anorexia can attest that a "calm" feeling leads up to injurious starvation.

Why would they "not" stay together after one or two dies? They spend 24 hours a day together and rely on each other to warn of danger. Again, deer are not humans and are not spiritual nor are they repulsed by death.

For you to think that several deer, in one immediate area could, in a similar time period, suffer from injuries or lethal wounds and then "go to" andcollect in one area and die from wounds, is simply -- way, way out there.

TinCup24

Maybe thoughs No. are high for a reason?? To show them to the DCNR???
I think I chose the wrong state to move to..

We knew this was coming. We didn’t know when or how, but we knew a “deal” was in the wind. When DCNR Secretary Mike DiBerardinis lifted the six-month moratorium on land transfers from conservancies to the PGC, scuttlebutt said Commissioner Russ Schleiden promised DCNR a deal to kill more deer on State Forest Lands in trade. On November 15, a PGC/DCNR meeting came together and Secretary DiBerardinis put his cards on the table. I have the minutes of that meeting and they are ugly.
There were four issues DCNR wants resolved to their liking. The issues were an easier method of distributing DMAP coupons, multiple DMAP coupons per hunter, an extended rifle season for deer and an agency cooperative forest regeneration study.
As you read through these minutes it becomes apparent that DMAP is a burden to administrate. There is much discussion of establishing a “Point of Sale” system whereas hunters can buy doe permits across the counter or on the Internet. This has become quite common in other states.
However, DCNR wants to take it a step further and allow hunters to buy multiple DMAP permits. It seems that in some areas of the state, the Pocono’s and Tiadaghton State Forest were mentioned, DCNR can not sell all of the DMAP coupons. DCNR’s Merlin Benner stated that hunters had a 21% success rate on DMAP properties, although we don’t know if hunters are using their traditional doe permits or DMAP coupons, first.
In a big breakthrough, DCNR let it be known they are using “aerial infrared mapping” techniques to survey deer populations. This is extremely critical because the PGC has told us for years that this technique is too expensive to verify their deer population numbers. It is laughable that DCNR would pick the Pocono’s for such work. Merlin Benner stated there were 460 deer in 123 groups in one Pocono area DCNR surveyed. Think about that. This equates to 3.7 deer per group, hardly what I would call a population explosion.
The extended seasons suggested by DCNR is where it really gets ugly. DCNR is requesting opening the rifle deer season earlier, an early muzzleloader season open to all weapons, a September DMAP rifle season for does only and two more weeks of rifle season. I think it would be safe to say any of these policies would clean up the remnants of our deer herd quite effectively.
DCNR is also calling for a cooperative regeneration study with the PGC to “build public support” for destroying our deer herd. This one is born out of that same old story, “if it is not growing in the woods, the deer must have eaten it.” The lack of science in this theory is reprehensible. All of these suggestions must be submitted to the PGC Executive Office by December 20 for them to be voted upon at the January meeting.
Based on all that has happened in the last three years, I think it is quite accurate to say the PGC has lost control of deer management in PA. The close political connection between Secretary Mike DiBerardinis and the Governor has proven to be too much political clout for the PGC and our Commissioners to handle. Our Commissioners have “buckled at the knees” to every demand DCNR has put forth. DMAP should have never passed as a management tool unless DCNR was able to prove excessive deer numbers by infrared aerial survey as fact. With the worse acid deposition problem in the nation, DCNR, the PGC and Dr. Gary Alt have consistently blamed our deer for merely trying to stay alive in our collapsing forest ecosystems.
It now appears DCNR will not be happy until literally every deer on State Forests Lands is dead. Rapid, unnecessary decimation of our deer herd will significantly impact license sales in subsequent years. Our hunters will either quit hunting or those with the resources will go out of state. I hope this doesn’t happen, but a license sales crash is quite possible. I am confident when this occurs, DCNR will be the first to criticize the PGC and suggest merger of the agencies under DCNR is the only logical solution.
As you read through these minutes you will quickly realize, once again, the preposterous threats made by Dr. Gary Alt. I am sorry, but he has lost all credibility as a deer manager and couldn’t leave us fast enough.
If any of the above causes you concern, I would not bother to call the PGC or our PGC Commissioners. They are meaningless and useless. I suggest you contact your legislators.

NorthPA

Tincup. I hope some passer byes are tossing coins into that cup. Apparently your fantasy movie deal got shot down for
"over-imagination."
What a bunch of pointless rambling and illogical "interpretations."

Seems as though you really dug into the "old" archives to find some of that hashed-over and over and over again, stuff.

You kids gotta get some studying done.

R.S.B.

Your comment and tirade make it rather obvious that you don’t have much of a grasp on deer management, forest management, where deer find their food in a forest habitat or how the deer/forest interactions affect one another or even their own populations and existence.

You don’t think deer and forests were unrelated issues with no affect on each other or themselves do you?

R.S. Bodenhorn

R.S.B.

Wow, are we going to have to go that far back to the very first square of deer interactions to start this educational process?

In the hard winters deer get locked into the wintering grounds by the deep snows. Then as winter progresses the condition of the deer deteriorates to the point they don’t have the energy to go off pushing through deep snows looking for food. So they just try to conserve energy by lying down. Eventually they don’t have the energy to get up to even feed. The head will roll back over their back and they linger on until they eventually die.

Some winter morality deer will even die outside the wintering grounds after the snows have receded. If a deer loses 30% or more of its body weight over the winter and then the winter opens up or the deer gets more food it is probably still going to die. Once they reach about 30-35% loss of body weight they will probably die within a few days to a week even if they are once again mobile and able to leave the wintering rounds. This problem of losing that much weight is much more pronounced in the younger deer but can also happen with older deer if the winter is real extreme.

The deer being locked into the wintering grounds is why it is common to find dead deer in groups.

Incidentally my winter mortality survey routes were all at least three miles from any paved roads. The furthest one was a little over seven miles from a paved road and more then two miles from the closest dirt road open to motor vehicles. Therefore, it would be a real stretch to suspect any of the deer on my mortality routes had even been hit by a vehicle.

By the way I also noticed that you pulled snippets out of my previous post that you could use out of the context, making it look like all of my quote, yetused to suit your cause. Don’t you feel more then just a little bit dishonest when you do something that?

R.S. Bodenhorn

germain

Welp boys,the charts,personal experiences,and discussion have been presented.The jury is out of session.
I come to the conclusion that I still believe the non access areas of Allegheny county are saving enough deer keep the populations stable.I still say if you opened the whole place up to public hunting like say sproul state forest those numbers would be drastically reduced.
In my closing arguements,I'd like to say that the good habitat and few predators help the fawns of those saved doe survive.On the contrary,I firmly believe the deer populations in the NC were reduced in this order by herd reductions,a few bad winters in relation with some poor habitat.However now in places I no longer feel there are enough hunters to keep those numbers down so factors like poor habitat and predators come into play.
Having said that it's a different story in these southern counties on public land.And as proof if I can find it I can give the link to another forum with pics of rothrock state forest that will show what I've been saying.If anybody is interested PM me and I'll hopefully find you the link.
I want to thank our resident WCO for taking alot of time to post charts and stats on the boards here.It's appreciated.
You boys have a good night .