"PA deer mismanagement"
12-24-2006, 01:48 PM
#111
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
ORIGINAL: germain
I have seen some of the stuff you're talking about sproul especially people shooting fawns on public land.There aren't enough wco's so we as hunters have to turn their sorry arses in every chance we get.
I have seen some of the stuff you're talking about sproul especially people shooting fawns on public land.There aren't enough wco's so we as hunters have to turn their sorry arses in every chance we get.
most of deer are NOT WAYBACK,so roadhunting is good way to get chance at deer..WAYBACK is another way of some saying THERE ARE DEER..
dont believe it,its a fib..most of deer i did see this year were close to roads/fields where feed was..WAYBACK,the habitat for cover is good but feed is not so good..
what ole sproul has found out over years is, deer will be close to food EVEN if there is less cover and more hunters,not go WAYBACK to hide..
i just saw a big huge buck on sat 23rdgoing shopping at williamsport..he was sitting 150 yards from lowes dept store near a public jogging trail and private duck pond park..i saw him turn his head in sun and those big horns stuck right out in sun..i was driving east at 55 mph..
he was NOT WAYBACK..wayback is a buzz word now to fool the unknowing..
12-26-2006, 08:40 AM
#112
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
I think you guys are missing the point about this study.It isn't to show that hunters are lazy and don't go after the deer.That area is rugged and I for one would travel back through three steep ravines to drag a doe out.It doesn't matter that hunters may be passing on does.What matters is that hunters aren't killing them and the population is still low.That's all it shows.Something is keeping the herd down and it isn't the hunters.Most likely it's the habitat.
Sproul,once again,I fail to see your reasoning.On one hand you complain that hords of hunters are killing every doe and fawn around.then you turn around and say guys aren't letting hunters shoot does.Which is it?You also need to get off the coyote kick.They've been around for alot longer than 8 years.Do they have an effect?Sure,but they have alot more of an effect in poor habitat.
About the only thing Iagree withwhat you said is that you don't have to go far from the roads to kill a deer.I rarely hunt more than 1/4 mile from the road andI kill deer on public land every year.However,if the deer are close to the roads,you should be able to find them further back in,if the habitat is good.I've yet get that desperate except for a few areas,but they're all downhill drags.i know a couple spots on state forest land that we kill kill several deer every year and they aren't more than 150 yards from a road.
Germain,There is no doubt what so ever that the herd started to get reduced fast after the first year of concurrent seasons.It got reduced the fastest in areas like Rockton mountain becauseit's so open.Then the winters of 2003 and 2004 came.If you ever noticed,that's when all the complaints really started.We have had two mild winters and the herd is definately starting to increase.There's no question about it.I drove through that area yesterday,on the way to my inlaws.That habitat is just pitiful man.There is nothing for the deer to eat up there this time of year.That picture of the area you cut is exactly what I'd expect to see once the herd has been decreased.Thank HR for that regeneration.We need to get together one of these weekends.Maybe a late season grouse hunt is in order.
Sproul,once again,I fail to see your reasoning.On one hand you complain that hords of hunters are killing every doe and fawn around.then you turn around and say guys aren't letting hunters shoot does.Which is it?You also need to get off the coyote kick.They've been around for alot longer than 8 years.Do they have an effect?Sure,but they have alot more of an effect in poor habitat.
About the only thing Iagree withwhat you said is that you don't have to go far from the roads to kill a deer.I rarely hunt more than 1/4 mile from the road andI kill deer on public land every year.However,if the deer are close to the roads,you should be able to find them further back in,if the habitat is good.I've yet get that desperate except for a few areas,but they're all downhill drags.i know a couple spots on state forest land that we kill kill several deer every year and they aren't more than 150 yards from a road.
Germain,There is no doubt what so ever that the herd started to get reduced fast after the first year of concurrent seasons.It got reduced the fastest in areas like Rockton mountain becauseit's so open.Then the winters of 2003 and 2004 came.If you ever noticed,that's when all the complaints really started.We have had two mild winters and the herd is definately starting to increase.There's no question about it.I drove through that area yesterday,on the way to my inlaws.That habitat is just pitiful man.There is nothing for the deer to eat up there this time of year.That picture of the area you cut is exactly what I'd expect to see once the herd has been decreased.Thank HR for that regeneration.We need to get together one of these weekends.Maybe a late season grouse hunt is in order.
12-26-2006, 11:39 AM
#113
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
douge, when they clearcutted the area in that test area,say about 20 years ago,the deer never came back..first, deer were not there before cuttings do to doe killing we had there..
there was huge crews in that area,they took toll on doe..now, you dont see big crews now..
but you see 10 times road hunters,its like a parade over there..
road hunting can do number on deer..
as for the deer with collars, explain more..do these have batterys in collar and how long does battery last?can they tell if deer has been shot and collar removed?how many had those type of collars on?or was it just ear tag?
if its just tag in ear, well, poachers over there most likely are eating that one..poaching was real bad over there this year..
you are very forunate to have someone ,like me, that can tell you what is going on ,going back to at least 1960 of my life and all my uncles, grandfathers , brothers,cousins, going back to 1929,we all hunted, fished, lived, spent all our time in that AREA..
i know this area well,dont tell me coyotes were always here,sadly, YOU ARE WRONG ON THAT ONE ,FOR SURE..
i know, i was there!!!
there was huge crews in that area,they took toll on doe..now, you dont see big crews now..
but you see 10 times road hunters,its like a parade over there..
road hunting can do number on deer..
as for the deer with collars, explain more..do these have batterys in collar and how long does battery last?can they tell if deer has been shot and collar removed?how many had those type of collars on?or was it just ear tag?
if its just tag in ear, well, poachers over there most likely are eating that one..poaching was real bad over there this year..
you are very forunate to have someone ,like me, that can tell you what is going on ,going back to at least 1960 of my life and all my uncles, grandfathers , brothers,cousins, going back to 1929,we all hunted, fished, lived, spent all our time in that AREA..
i know this area well,dont tell me coyotes were always here,sadly, YOU ARE WRONG ON THAT ONE ,FOR SURE..
i know, i was there!!!
12-26-2006, 12:12 PM
#114
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
My Dad talks of coyotes near Emporium when he hunted there 40 years ago. They HAVE been here that long and longer. The influx of late is due to the hybrid strains coming from Canada that are very capable of taking down healthy adult deer. My Dad talks about the "little" coyotes from 40 years ago and when he saw the big one I shot a few years ago, he said "Holy Crap, that is a different animal than the ones we used to see"!
These hybrids are decimating the deer herds in the mountainous regions and it is showing up more now due to HR. The solution is to shoot, shoot and shoot some more at coyotes. Any deer hunter that watches a coyote go by and doesn't shoot it is making a big mistake. My brother saw a black phase 'yote this year. The black and grey phases in coyotes is from wolf genes. The original little yotes that we used to have did not have these color phases, just tan.
These hybrids are decimating the deer herds in the mountainous regions and it is showing up more now due to HR. The solution is to shoot, shoot and shoot some more at coyotes. Any deer hunter that watches a coyote go by and doesn't shoot it is making a big mistake. My brother saw a black phase 'yote this year. The black and grey phases in coyotes is from wolf genes. The original little yotes that we used to have did not have these color phases, just tan.
12-26-2006, 12:18 PM
#115
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
So you're saying that they killed all the deer over 20 years ago now?
I don't believe roadhunters can do a number on the deer.All of the roadhunters I run in to are the sameone's complaining that there's no deer.
before last hunting season,there were 54 doe with electronic collars.This is a doe mortality study so they are fitted withtracking collars.If the deerdoesn't move in a certain amount of time,it signals a mortality beep.these deer are all being kept track of so they know how many survived and what killed the ones that die.It's similar to the fawn mortality study.So yes,they know if the collar was removed.
I'm willing to put any amount of money on the table to say that coyotes have been in Clinton county far longer than 8 years.
I don't believe roadhunters can do a number on the deer.All of the roadhunters I run in to are the sameone's complaining that there's no deer.
before last hunting season,there were 54 doe with electronic collars.This is a doe mortality study so they are fitted withtracking collars.If the deerdoesn't move in a certain amount of time,it signals a mortality beep.these deer are all being kept track of so they know how many survived and what killed the ones that die.It's similar to the fawn mortality study.So yes,they know if the collar was removed.
I'm willing to put any amount of money on the table to say that coyotes have been in Clinton county far longer than 8 years.
12-26-2006, 02:14 PM
#116
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
as for the deer with collars, explain more..do these have batterys in collar and how long does battery last?can they tell if deer has been shot and collar removed?how many had those type of collars on?or was it just ear tag?
if its just tag in ear, well, poachers over there most likely are eating that one..poaching was real bad over there this year..
if its just tag in ear, well, poachers over there most likely are eating that one..poaching was real bad over there this year..
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?Q=167184&A=11
[size=5 roman,georga,times]Pennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency[/size]
2006 Press Releases
SearchPennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency HomePrintable VersioneMail
Release #006-06
FIRST YEAR OF DOE STUDY COMES TO A CLOSE
HARRISBURG - The first year of a mid-state study focusing on female white-tailed deer survival and behavior during hunting seasons recently concluded. The three-year research project is a cooperative venture between the Pennsylvania Game Commission and the Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at Penn State University.
The study, which is being conducted in Wildlife Management Units (WMUs) 2G and 4B, is designed to answer the following questions: What percentage of female deer survive from one hunting season to the next in both big woods and mixed habitats? What factors influence survival of female deer? What is hunter density on public and private lands? How do female deer respond to hunting activity on public and private lands? Do environmental factors influence the harvest of female deer?
In recent years, results from a series of research projects on white-tailed deer have been used to guide and refine deer management decisions made by the Game Commission. These studies include: a fawn survival study (2000-2001); a buck survival and movement study (2001-2005); a rut timing and conception study (2000-present); an antler measurement study (2000-2001); an evaluation of deer harvest estimates and reporting rates (2003-2004); and chronic wasting disease surveillance (1998-present). Information on many of these research projects can be found on the agency's website at (www.pgc.state.pa.us) by clicking on "Wildlife" and then choosing "Deer."
"This current study was designed to address a number of needs in our deer management program," said Dr. Christopher Rosenberry, Game Commission Deer Management Section supervisor. "Getting a clearer picture and better understanding of female white-tailed deer survival will help us in monitoring deer populations at the WMU level and making management decisions to adjust the size of WMU deer herds through the issuance of antlerless deer licenses. Previous research and an independent scientific review have confirmed our harvest estimates are valid. However, survival outside of hunting seasons and the factors affecting it are not well-known for Pennsylvania deer."
In the spring of 2005, the first year of the ongoing study, deer capture efforts were concentrated on public lands. Field crews captured nearly 250 deer. In WMU 2G, radio collars were put on 76 female deer, while 48 female deer were fitted with radio collars in WMU 4B. Survival and movements of radio-collared does were then monitored throughout the summer and fall.
From the time they were captured to the beginning of the hunting season, preliminary survival rates for female deer were about 85 percent. Collisions with vehicles, starvation and undetermined causes accounted for most deaths.
Going into the hunting seasons, 92 deer (54 in WMU 2G and 38 in WMU 4B) were being tracked by researchers. Seven percentof the WMU 2G study deer were taken by hunters compared to 21 percent of the WMU 4B deer. Similar to results from the buck and fawn studies, illegal harvest was minimal and, to the researchers' knowledge, none of the radio-collared deer were illegally killed this past year.
"Although we have confirmed 15 percent of study deer were taken by hunters, we would not say these results should be applied to other areas of Pennsylvania, let alone the statewide harvest," noted Dr. Duane Diefenbach, Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit assistant leader. "Unlike the buck study where we had hundreds of marked bucks scattered across large, diverse areas, these results involve fewer deer from specific areas."
In Pennsylvania, antlered deer and antlerless deer harvests are managed differently. Every hunter who purchases a hunting license can legally harvest a buck. To harvest an antlerless deer - including young males, or button bucks - hunters must obtain an antlerless license. The antlerless license allocation has been a central part of the Game Commission's deer management program for decades and is used to adjust the harvest of antlerless deer at the WMU level.
"The antlerless deer license allocation changes from year to year and by WMU to reflect changes in antlerless deer populations over time," Rosenberry said. "Because of these changes, it's more difficult to apply study deer harvest rates across WMUs. For this reason, we focused on estimating non-hunting season survival of female deer, their movements and response to hunting activity, and hunter distributions when we developed this study."
Bret Wallingford, Game Commission biologist, noted that the antlerless deer study differs from the recently completed buck study.
"The buck study was designed to estimate harvest rates and monitor the effects of antler restrictions across large areas with similar regulations," Wallingford said. "We now are focusing on hunter densities and distribution and how they may differ on public and private lands.
"Furthermore, we are interested in documenting how land ownership and other environmental factors are related to when and where female deer are harvested. Over the course of our research on female deer we hope to monitor their survival outside of the hunting season and movements on both public and private land and in a variety of landscapes."
Although analysis of movement data during the hunting season is ongoing, some interesting anecdotal movements have been observed.
"In the buck study, we monitored more than 450 yearling males and the largest dispersal movement was 26 miles," noted Matthew Keenan, a graduate student at Penn State University. "In this study, we actually had one doe travel more than 30 miles in WMU 4B. This doe was uncooperative when captured and kicked off her collar once while we were handling her. We were able to fit her with a radio-collar and monitored her movements after release. Then, in May she took off. Her desire to travel caught up to her when she was hit by a car on U.S. Route 22/322 last fall.
"In WMU 2G, we had one doe travel about 11 miles, but on average, most does remained within a mile of where they were captured. Given the relatively few number of females handled so far in this study, we were surprised to document such long-distance dispersal movements."
Efforts to estimate hunter densities across the study areas were hampered by poor weather early in the regular firearms season, but a number of flights were flown during the weekends and second week. Analysis of these data has not been completed, and more flights will be conducted next hunting season.
"The first year of this study went well," noted Wallingford. "Our field crews, led by biologist aides Walter 'Deet' James, and Jason Kougher did an excellent job all year. We had good capture success and gathered important data on doe survival outside of the hunting season, movements, response to hunting activity and hunter densities. Future work on this study will continue to focus on meeting these objectives."
New trapping crews have started field work for the 2006 capture season. Capture efforts this year will result in radio-collared deer being monitored on public and private lands in expanded areas of both study areas.
# # #
Content Last Modified on 1/20/2006 3:58:21 PM
SearchPennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency HomePrintable VersioneMail
2006 Press Releases
SearchPennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency HomePrintable VersioneMail
Release #006-06
FIRST YEAR OF DOE STUDY COMES TO A CLOSE
HARRISBURG - The first year of a mid-state study focusing on female white-tailed deer survival and behavior during hunting seasons recently concluded. The three-year research project is a cooperative venture between the Pennsylvania Game Commission and the Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at Penn State University.
The study, which is being conducted in Wildlife Management Units (WMUs) 2G and 4B, is designed to answer the following questions: What percentage of female deer survive from one hunting season to the next in both big woods and mixed habitats? What factors influence survival of female deer? What is hunter density on public and private lands? How do female deer respond to hunting activity on public and private lands? Do environmental factors influence the harvest of female deer?
In recent years, results from a series of research projects on white-tailed deer have been used to guide and refine deer management decisions made by the Game Commission. These studies include: a fawn survival study (2000-2001); a buck survival and movement study (2001-2005); a rut timing and conception study (2000-present); an antler measurement study (2000-2001); an evaluation of deer harvest estimates and reporting rates (2003-2004); and chronic wasting disease surveillance (1998-present). Information on many of these research projects can be found on the agency's website at (www.pgc.state.pa.us) by clicking on "Wildlife" and then choosing "Deer."
"This current study was designed to address a number of needs in our deer management program," said Dr. Christopher Rosenberry, Game Commission Deer Management Section supervisor. "Getting a clearer picture and better understanding of female white-tailed deer survival will help us in monitoring deer populations at the WMU level and making management decisions to adjust the size of WMU deer herds through the issuance of antlerless deer licenses. Previous research and an independent scientific review have confirmed our harvest estimates are valid. However, survival outside of hunting seasons and the factors affecting it are not well-known for Pennsylvania deer."
In the spring of 2005, the first year of the ongoing study, deer capture efforts were concentrated on public lands. Field crews captured nearly 250 deer. In WMU 2G, radio collars were put on 76 female deer, while 48 female deer were fitted with radio collars in WMU 4B. Survival and movements of radio-collared does were then monitored throughout the summer and fall.
From the time they were captured to the beginning of the hunting season, preliminary survival rates for female deer were about 85 percent. Collisions with vehicles, starvation and undetermined causes accounted for most deaths.
Going into the hunting seasons, 92 deer (54 in WMU 2G and 38 in WMU 4B) were being tracked by researchers. Seven percentof the WMU 2G study deer were taken by hunters compared to 21 percent of the WMU 4B deer. Similar to results from the buck and fawn studies, illegal harvest was minimal and, to the researchers' knowledge, none of the radio-collared deer were illegally killed this past year.
"Although we have confirmed 15 percent of study deer were taken by hunters, we would not say these results should be applied to other areas of Pennsylvania, let alone the statewide harvest," noted Dr. Duane Diefenbach, Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit assistant leader. "Unlike the buck study where we had hundreds of marked bucks scattered across large, diverse areas, these results involve fewer deer from specific areas."
In Pennsylvania, antlered deer and antlerless deer harvests are managed differently. Every hunter who purchases a hunting license can legally harvest a buck. To harvest an antlerless deer - including young males, or button bucks - hunters must obtain an antlerless license. The antlerless license allocation has been a central part of the Game Commission's deer management program for decades and is used to adjust the harvest of antlerless deer at the WMU level.
"The antlerless deer license allocation changes from year to year and by WMU to reflect changes in antlerless deer populations over time," Rosenberry said. "Because of these changes, it's more difficult to apply study deer harvest rates across WMUs. For this reason, we focused on estimating non-hunting season survival of female deer, their movements and response to hunting activity, and hunter distributions when we developed this study."
Bret Wallingford, Game Commission biologist, noted that the antlerless deer study differs from the recently completed buck study.
"The buck study was designed to estimate harvest rates and monitor the effects of antler restrictions across large areas with similar regulations," Wallingford said. "We now are focusing on hunter densities and distribution and how they may differ on public and private lands.
"Furthermore, we are interested in documenting how land ownership and other environmental factors are related to when and where female deer are harvested. Over the course of our research on female deer we hope to monitor their survival outside of the hunting season and movements on both public and private land and in a variety of landscapes."
Although analysis of movement data during the hunting season is ongoing, some interesting anecdotal movements have been observed.
"In the buck study, we monitored more than 450 yearling males and the largest dispersal movement was 26 miles," noted Matthew Keenan, a graduate student at Penn State University. "In this study, we actually had one doe travel more than 30 miles in WMU 4B. This doe was uncooperative when captured and kicked off her collar once while we were handling her. We were able to fit her with a radio-collar and monitored her movements after release. Then, in May she took off. Her desire to travel caught up to her when she was hit by a car on U.S. Route 22/322 last fall.
"In WMU 2G, we had one doe travel about 11 miles, but on average, most does remained within a mile of where they were captured. Given the relatively few number of females handled so far in this study, we were surprised to document such long-distance dispersal movements."
Efforts to estimate hunter densities across the study areas were hampered by poor weather early in the regular firearms season, but a number of flights were flown during the weekends and second week. Analysis of these data has not been completed, and more flights will be conducted next hunting season.
"The first year of this study went well," noted Wallingford. "Our field crews, led by biologist aides Walter 'Deet' James, and Jason Kougher did an excellent job all year. We had good capture success and gathered important data on doe survival outside of the hunting season, movements, response to hunting activity and hunter densities. Future work on this study will continue to focus on meeting these objectives."
New trapping crews have started field work for the 2006 capture season. Capture efforts this year will result in radio-collared deer being monitored on public and private lands in expanded areas of both study areas.
# # #
Content Last Modified on 1/20/2006 3:58:21 PM
SearchPennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency HomePrintable VersioneMail
In your last post you said:
douge, when they clearcutted the area in that test area,say about 20 years ago,the deer never came back..first, deer were not there before cuttings do to doe killing we had there..
As for the coyotes, I have articles somewhere from the late 60's or early 70's talking about coyotes getting a foothold here in PA
12-26-2006, 07:00 PM
#117
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
no coyotes were ever seen inwestern clinton county until about 8 years ago,then sighting were all over..i know, i was there..
like i said, back about 1960 to 65 or so, there was lot of deer in that test area..BIG CREWS did number on doe..you dont have crews in that area ,you used too..
other areas of countyhad big crews also andMORE DEER..
when they logged off areas of barneys,petes run, beech creek rd,fish dam,about 20 years ago or so, deer DID NOT COME BACK..
this areas are like jungle,but very few deer..
WHY??deer were down in this area before the clearcutting do to doe killing..the deer did not get chance to grow up after woods was logged off..this area did not have deer EVER like other areas of western clinton county..i know, i was there..
i have friend that traps yotes..he used to trap fox as i did too,oh yes, sproul is trapper too, so i am in woods ALOTbut sold my traps ..dont you think if i saw yotes in my travels TRAPPING , i would know if they were here 10,20,30,40 years ago??
think about it..as for yotes not killing deer,trust me, they are killing fawns and we had reports that they are after full grown deer also..most of time yotes are eating mice on pipelines..i saw 9 yotes last year,all were on pipelines at 7 am in morning..usually, they are male/female hunting together..
sorry to get off topic..i cant say why those doe were not harvested as i dont know they info etc.this was all new to me on that collar thing..
that must be a heck of battery on collars to be able to last years..i can tell you, there are camps that ARE NOT KILLING DOE OFF..i talked to camp that did not harvest doe in their hunting area,not one..
if battery goes dead, do they show this as deer that is shot?or one that is still alive and battery went dead??doe going 11 miles,i am seeing that with BUCK now do to the lack of doe,but not 11 miles, i did see buck 3 miles away from where i saw him a week ago ..
that never happened but is now do to lack of doe..
like i said, back about 1960 to 65 or so, there was lot of deer in that test area..BIG CREWS did number on doe..you dont have crews in that area ,you used too..
other areas of countyhad big crews also andMORE DEER..
when they logged off areas of barneys,petes run, beech creek rd,fish dam,about 20 years ago or so, deer DID NOT COME BACK..
this areas are like jungle,but very few deer..
WHY??deer were down in this area before the clearcutting do to doe killing..the deer did not get chance to grow up after woods was logged off..this area did not have deer EVER like other areas of western clinton county..i know, i was there..
i have friend that traps yotes..he used to trap fox as i did too,oh yes, sproul is trapper too, so i am in woods ALOTbut sold my traps ..dont you think if i saw yotes in my travels TRAPPING , i would know if they were here 10,20,30,40 years ago??
think about it..as for yotes not killing deer,trust me, they are killing fawns and we had reports that they are after full grown deer also..most of time yotes are eating mice on pipelines..i saw 9 yotes last year,all were on pipelines at 7 am in morning..usually, they are male/female hunting together..
sorry to get off topic..i cant say why those doe were not harvested as i dont know they info etc.this was all new to me on that collar thing..
that must be a heck of battery on collars to be able to last years..i can tell you, there are camps that ARE NOT KILLING DOE OFF..i talked to camp that did not harvest doe in their hunting area,not one..
if battery goes dead, do they show this as deer that is shot?or one that is still alive and battery went dead??doe going 11 miles,i am seeing that with BUCK now do to the lack of doe,but not 11 miles, i did see buck 3 miles away from where i saw him a week ago ..
that never happened but is now do to lack of doe..
12-26-2006, 07:34 PM
#118
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
Well. I can attest to my Dad's reliability. He had sightings of coyote in Cameron County 40 years ago. He has said that they were a different looking animal than what we are now seeing.
I can also attest to the new breed bringing down grown deer. I saw it personally, I wrote about it here on this forum over a year ago. Of course the new yotes in their higher numbers are having an impact on the deer herd. One would have to be an imbecile to dispute that.
There are deer there Sproul. The fact that areas are being logged now makes hunting them a bit harder. The deer like cover. The old mature forests that we were used to had virtually NO cover and the deer got pushed by the hordes of hunter CREWS as you put it. Now, if there is a logged section that humans can't penetrate, the deer seek this cover when they feel the hunting pressure. The lower numbers of hunters just exacerbates the effect. I remember in my youth that the second day of hunting was always SO much harder because of the few hunters that would go way back and push the deer. It is like that NOW on THE FIRST DAY because of fewer hunters overall, coupled with lower deer numbers because of HR, lower deer numbers because of predation etc. This is your answer. I don't know what more can be said on this issue.
I can also attest to the new breed bringing down grown deer. I saw it personally, I wrote about it here on this forum over a year ago. Of course the new yotes in their higher numbers are having an impact on the deer herd. One would have to be an imbecile to dispute that.
There are deer there Sproul. The fact that areas are being logged now makes hunting them a bit harder. The deer like cover. The old mature forests that we were used to had virtually NO cover and the deer got pushed by the hordes of hunter CREWS as you put it. Now, if there is a logged section that humans can't penetrate, the deer seek this cover when they feel the hunting pressure. The lower numbers of hunters just exacerbates the effect. I remember in my youth that the second day of hunting was always SO much harder because of the few hunters that would go way back and push the deer. It is like that NOW on THE FIRST DAY because of fewer hunters overall, coupled with lower deer numbers because of HR, lower deer numbers because of predation etc. This is your answer. I don't know what more can be said on this issue.
12-26-2006, 08:13 PM
#119
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
cant speak for CAMERON even tho i spent some time in the WYKOFF AREA..i am speaking for western CLINTON/edge of POTTER..we never saw yote and never heard story of anyone in this are seeing any..
UNTIL, 8 years ago it got real serious..what i cant understand is why all coyotes came in like 1 year and then great numbers from then on..
when we had lots of der, 60s /70s,no coyotes, NOW, no deer and loads of coyotes..CAMERON is terrible on deer numbers, worst than clinton/potter..you can ride roads with fresh snow and only see couple tracks..when i was 18,old car we used to go up the WYKOFF ROAD and hit MONTOUR RD..
you would see tracks all over roads..fields,you would take ride and see deer, DURING season all over fields along roads..try that now,if you see 1 set of tracks the whole trip accross the MONTOUR rd,thats something..
you were LUCKY to pass a road hunter..
now, just opposite, lots of road hunters and NO DEER..
UNTIL, 8 years ago it got real serious..what i cant understand is why all coyotes came in like 1 year and then great numbers from then on..
when we had lots of der, 60s /70s,no coyotes, NOW, no deer and loads of coyotes..CAMERON is terrible on deer numbers, worst than clinton/potter..you can ride roads with fresh snow and only see couple tracks..when i was 18,old car we used to go up the WYKOFF ROAD and hit MONTOUR RD..
you would see tracks all over roads..fields,you would take ride and see deer, DURING season all over fields along roads..try that now,if you see 1 set of tracks the whole trip accross the MONTOUR rd,thats something..
you were LUCKY to pass a road hunter..
now, just opposite, lots of road hunters and NO DEER..
12-27-2006, 07:19 AM
#120
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
It's no point arguing with you about coyotes but Iguarantee that they were in Clinton county way longer than 8 years.They've been in Clearfield county for as long as I've lived hear in large numbers and they've been in Wyoing county for several decades.The firstdead coyote I ever saw was on the first day of doe season in 1980.
Deer numbers are down in Cameron county but the habitat is terrible up there for the most part.I hunt an area in southern Cameron county right where rt 120 and rt872 meet.It's a long steep hike to get where it was timbered in 2001 but there's plentyof deer up there right now.That won't last long though because the deer concentrate there because the habitat is poor for miles around.Last year I saw about 25 deer by 10:00am on the last day of the season.
I got news for you.If an area was clearcut 20 years ago and the deer never returned,it wasn't because they were all shot off.Most likely that clearcut was a failure and only non-preferred species regenerated.You say these areas are like a jungle but they were cut over 20 years ago.How long do you think it takes for the regeneration to grow out og the reach of the deer.If you're looking at a 20 year old clearcut,you're most likely looking at pole timber which will support very few deer.That's exactly what will happen if the cut much more than the mandated 1% a year.Youhave a habitat problem in the Sproul and that's no secret.
Deer numbers are down in Cameron county but the habitat is terrible up there for the most part.I hunt an area in southern Cameron county right where rt 120 and rt872 meet.It's a long steep hike to get where it was timbered in 2001 but there's plentyof deer up there right now.That won't last long though because the deer concentrate there because the habitat is poor for miles around.Last year I saw about 25 deer by 10:00am on the last day of the season.
I got news for you.If an area was clearcut 20 years ago and the deer never returned,it wasn't because they were all shot off.Most likely that clearcut was a failure and only non-preferred species regenerated.You say these areas are like a jungle but they were cut over 20 years ago.How long do you think it takes for the regeneration to grow out og the reach of the deer.If you're looking at a 20 year old clearcut,you're most likely looking at pole timber which will support very few deer.That's exactly what will happen if the cut much more than the mandated 1% a year.Youhave a habitat problem in the Sproul and that's no secret.