"PA deer mismanagement"
12-24-2006, 07:56 AM
#101
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,149
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
Here ya go BT.This is a small area I opened up by cutting trees.Less then 50 yards back the canopy is closed yet nothing but ferns.A forester told me opening up is great for wildlife but not for logging because the maples get limbs on them down to the ground.But what about the browse line?
There's young oaks in here,red maple,cherry,and various wild flowers.It looks like eventally the cherry will shade out the oaks.No fertilizer or lime here
There's young oaks in here,red maple,cherry,and various wild flowers.It looks like eventally the cherry will shade out the oaks.No fertilizer or lime here
12-24-2006, 10:45 AM
#106
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
Obviously the study area does not necessarily represent the entire state. But you have sidestepped the question.The study area is right in the middle of 2G soit is relevant to question why so few collared deer were killed by hunters in the very part of 2G that many here specifically complain aboutas having no deer.
Again, it appears that hunting pressure on the does is not all thats wrong in 2G.
ORIGINAL: deerfly
Thanks. I must have missed that PR.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that raise questions about the validity of the study? In 2005 we harvested 233,890 antlerless deer and 56% were adult doe ,so we harvested 130,978 adult doe. So if those 131K doe represented 1 out of 76 adult doe in the herd, then we has around 99,543,0000 PS adult doe. Since we all know that the PS herd in 2005 was well under 1.5M deer it would be simply impossible to have more than 700k PS adult doe. So unless the PGC can account for the descrepencey the Adult Doe Study will have little ,if any value.
Thanks. I must have missed that PR.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that raise questions about the validity of the study? In 2005 we harvested 233,890 antlerless deer and 56% were adult doe ,so we harvested 130,978 adult doe. So if those 131K doe represented 1 out of 76 adult doe in the herd, then we has around 99,543,0000 PS adult doe. Since we all know that the PS herd in 2005 was well under 1.5M deer it would be simply impossible to have more than 700k PS adult doe. So unless the PGC can account for the descrepencey the Adult Doe Study will have little ,if any value.
Again, it appears that hunting pressure on the does is not all thats wrong in 2G.
only i can give reasons,if you would like to hear it..
this area was not always a big DOE area to kill doe even tho they were reduced real bad in last 5 years or so..
hunters that had camps would go to OTHER areas to kiil their doe..they still do..
stop at darrin camp,good friends of mine and ask them if they doe hunt in that area..THEY WILL SAY, GET H OUT OF HERE,GO SOMEWHERE ELSE..thats 25 doe that are not shot..i bet all camps in penrose area do same thing, they hunt DOE near their homes..
the hunters for years used to always go elsewhere to hunt doe..this is tough area to hunt and unless you have gang, its hard to hunt..this DOES NOT mean there is deer there..this area NEVER was great area for deer,big trees, laural,hard winters..i have been there for 50 years ,on /off hunting..i know the area WELL..
most go to easier area to hunt DOE..
now, bucks are different story, many hunt this area for buck..
only 2 reasons without knowing a lot about collared deer are not shot,
first, hunters are leaving them go..hunters are not reporting the deer but you said they know if they are shot and not turned in..
i would bet if you collared ALL BUCKS,that they would all be shot.
again, i only put reasons on here,that area was never a big doe area,i should know, i had camp,i was there every chance i could after school and in adult life..there was deer there in 1965,i saw herds of 10 to 15 deer BUT in other areas i saw herds of 15 to 30 and a lot easier hunting..
most of big herds of deer i saw in that area were in the panther rd.area..i used to see 15 on road there all time..
my trips over there now, you are lucky to see a deer in road in panther rd area..thats where all feed is too as state cuts brush along rt144,so as you said, deer are NOT WAYBACK ..
again, i cant answer on collared deer..how many were collared and what was location of release..if i can get that info, i will by next fall have answer after i talk to my MANY friends who hunt that area..
12-24-2006, 11:10 AM
#108
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
ORIGINAL: germain
sproul,so by what you're saying is that hunters aren't the reason for low numbers?That brings the question as to why the deer numbers are low.
sproul,so by what you're saying is that hunters aren't the reason for low numbers?That brings the question as to why the deer numbers are low.
road hunting there is AWFUL..if deer sticks its head out, its done..just opposite of years ago, you would very seldom see a ROAD HUNTER in 1965 area,it was all crews, now, all road hunters..POACHING is terrible in that area,will poacher turn in a TAGGED DEER..i bet not..they found 5 bucks with heads missing in that COLLARED AREA, was collar on that head??
why, when deer got less from that time to now do to hunting pressure and woods growing up with less feed,doe never recovered to what it was in 1960s..crews LEFT doe/fawns go
,now FAWN IS SHOT..a
when permits grew,deer were less..
NOW, you have hunters that shoot FAWNS,yes, FAWNS..
years ago a roadhunters would pass on FAWNS, not anymore..
i have been saying this over/over, if hunters continue to kill fawns,predators take a lot also, i cant see things getting any better..
i did not see coyote until about 8 years ago here, NOW, well, you know what is happening..they are all over area..
I AM ABOUT THE ONLY ONE LEFT THAT CAN TELL YOU WHAT WAS FROM 1960 TO NOW IN THAT AREA..
again, i cant answer the tagged deer thing until i knowwhere they were released and how many..
with that info, i will get us all answer..
12-24-2006, 11:25 AM
#109
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
I agree 100% that the forest needs to be opened up to have regeneration.
As a matter of fact, keying on logged areas has been the key to our success in 2F.
Whats the ideal deer density? I dont know. I do believe it must be tailored to an individual area and I've always agreed with the idea that smaller WMU's would work better. I think the county system is not the answer either but smaller WMU's would help and counties were smaller WMU's
Nice pic by the way. I logged 2 acres around my camp last year and so I have a little plot going kinda like you do. We were up to our ears in deer poop this year! I think they were in my spot for bedding cover from the tops just as much as for the new growth.
As a matter of fact, keying on logged areas has been the key to our success in 2F.
Whats the ideal deer density? I dont know. I do believe it must be tailored to an individual area and I've always agreed with the idea that smaller WMU's would work better. I think the county system is not the answer either but smaller WMU's would help and counties were smaller WMU's
Nice pic by the way. I logged 2 acres around my camp last year and so I have a little plot going kinda like you do. We were up to our ears in deer poop this year! I think they were in my spot for bedding cover from the tops just as much as for the new growth.
12-24-2006, 12:37 PM
#110
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1,149
RE: "PA deer mismanagement"
I have seen some of the stuff you're talking about sproul especially people shooting fawns on public land.There aren't enough wco's so we as hunters have to turn their sorry arses in every chance we get.