BTBowhunter

Obviously the study area does not necessarily represent the entire state. But you have sidestepped the question.The study area is right in the middle of 2G soit is relevant to question why so few collared deer were killed by hunters in the very part of 2G that many here specifically complain aboutas having no deer.

Again, it appears that hunting pressure on the does is not all thats wrong in 2G.

germain

I would think BT that the percentage of deer killed in the NC is lower then the more populated counties.There's alot more country for them to hide in not to mention the rugged terrain.There's also less hunters then there used to be in this area. But the pressure on the does the first couple years of HR was incredible.Man that first two years was non stop shooting.So there's no doubt HR brought the herd down in 2G.Now the big question is why isn't it coming back after a few mild winters?DCE will say the habitat but if the habitat supported high numbers for 30 years why can't it support 10 dpsm now?It crashed that fast?Right after herd reduction?Doesn't make sense.As I said before I think those low deer numbers are putting more stress on the few deer that are there from predators.

BTBowhunter

I certainly agree germain. But 1 out of 50? there has to be more going on here! I cant remember the predator kills in the study on the adult deer but I will look for it.

I sympathize with you guys in 2G although we seem to have more members this year posting success stories than we did before. It will be interesting to see the harvest figures from 2G this year.

I also have to say again, the Forest County paper (where I hunt mostly) runs Slimesky's column regularly and the letters to the editor are heavy on the no "deer themes" yetthe hunters I know continue to harvest good deer in respectable numbers on public and timber Co land in the areas covered by that paper. That same paper has been running lots of photos of nice bucks since archery season as well.

I've got my own theories as to why but I welcome yours!

Crazy Horse RVN

"yetthe hunters I know continue to harvest good deer in respectable numbers on public and timber Co land."

BT, just how many hunters do you know?...100, 1000, 10,000???

What makes you think that your minimal observations have any degree of accuracy?

germain

What are your theories on this BT?I'd be interested in hearing them.Or I should say seeing them.

germain

I think right now it's all still theory CH.Habitat being the reason for the low deer numbers just doesn't make sense to me.I'm not saying there's not places with poor habitat but for folks to say habitat is solely the reason for low deer numbers in so much of the NC on public land just isn't sinking in with me.

BTBowhunter

My observations are 100% accurate

They may not be significant in relation to the statewide herd but they are 100% accurate themselves.

As to the significance in relation to the rest of the herd, my individual observations carry as much weight as yours do.

BTBowhunter

how do you explain the success guys like me, Livbicks, DougE to name a few seem to still be having on public ground smack dab in the "deer desert" areas of this state? I don't think we're all superhunters nor do I think all of the guys complaining about seeing no deer are bad hunters.

We arent that far apart here Germain. I can agree that poor habitat isn't the onlyfactor. But it's not just hunting pressure either. Fawn recruitment, predation etc etc are all part of it.

As far as theories about why some hunters are still very successful and some arent here goes:

the FLIR showed us that deer densities vary wildly within small areas at least in the wintertime. Is it possible that with deer densities lowered that this goes on all through the seasons?

As deer numbers were brought down, we noticed that the areas around us with poor habiatat produced far less deer yet going down the road a few miles resulted in much better hunting.

Here's another thing to consider. In the good (bad) old days, hunting pressure was much higher on three distinct days the opener of buck and both Saturdays. Hunting pressure on those days had deer in most of the state constantly on the move because they kept seeing smelling hearing humans. Hunter numbers in the big woods has been declining steadily and we all know it started before AR/HR. the number one method of hunting with a firearm in Pa was to sit in one spot and watch the parade of deer all day long. A deer bumped by multiple hunters is likely to hole up as soon as it feels safe. With far fewer hunters in the woods, but still enough that the deer know it's hunting season, the deer have to move far less to feel secure. You're an archer, I bet you've noticed less of a difference in deer activity when archery hunting that when gun hunting because then and now archery pressure has not changed as much.

Gernmain, I know Crazy Horse and deerfly wont even read this before beginning to spout numbers and the various USP battle cries but I know that you and many others can think for yourselves. Do you see any possible missing pieces to this big puzzle here?

White-tail-deer

BT that makes sense to me because we see it in my little part of the state. We hunt the edges of our property never going through the middle to keep the deer feeling safe. We see deer regularly while the neighbors who walk and drive threir land out every day complain "where are all the deer!" We all know that deer migrate and stay where they are pressured least and feel safest!!

germain

quote how do you explain the success guys like me, Livbicks, DougE to name a few seem to still be having on public ground smack dab in the "deer desert" areas of this state? I don't think we're all superhunters nor do I think all of the guys complaining about seeing no deer are bad hunters. quote

My two sons and me all got buck this year BT.One in archery and two in rifle.But this is on and around private land bordering public land to the north with 90% open to hunting.I'm not complaining about the deer we see although those numbers are low,I'm questioning whether or not forest certification is the right thing to do on state land set aside for open space and recreation.I want it to be known I do agree the past populations needed thinned and personally I think the 20-25 dpsm range makes for good hunting.Doug likes to use an area called rockton mtn as an example of poor habitat and no doubt it is wide open.But on the other hand that one side of the road is surrounded by roads and very easy access.You used to see 100 deer along a short span of highway there and since HR you'll maybe see a few eyes.Doug will say the poor habitat is the reason the numbers dropped so drastically yet those populations dropped after HR.This is the point I'm trying to get across.I also no with a closed canopy we're not going to see squat for regen.I used this experiment at camp and it turned out to be true.I'll post the pics for you if they're still in photobucket.
I also know of an area with good oak regen in an opening compared to 50 yards away in the shade.
I'm kinda on two subjects here.I just can't trust reasons behind forest certification when a animal rights group like greenpeace is involved.I'm also leary of left wing liberals like Rendell and debernliberal.
I do respect Doug because I know where he hunts and 99% of that area has very low deer numbers with a good bit below 10 dpsm.I think we all agree that number is unhuntable to keep the average guy interested and especially the older fellows who can't get back in alittle.There lies the complaints.Man if those numbers would be at 20 to say 30 dpsm I think you'd see alot of happy campers.But can the habitat hold those numbers?I don't know,I'm still undecided and still don't think it matters without sunlight.My problem lies with the DCNR and liberals running it.
Our group is a bunch of hard hunters and we have been killing plenty of bucks but I don't think you can guage that on the average fellow hunting state land because he's older,in most cases lives out of the area,and can't get back into those more remote rugged places where the big boys hide from pressure.Man all this typing makes a fellow's finger numb.I hope I explained my position clearly.