smokeman

Ive done that on my first hunt alone...I seen a deer,thought it had antlers,cranked up the power and couldnt put antlers on its head..I knew it had them..checked again with my eyes,it was a buck,,,cracked it...turned out to be a 3 point...trust your judgement without a scope...

BTBowhunter

I would bet that most of us have had it happen. I can remember one late muzzy season when half a dozen deer came through at about 60 yards. With snow on the ground, it was no problem picking out the biggest one. Boom! button buck! I think the point is to do our best within reason to avoid it where it's appropriate.

Windwalker, you have a genuine concern when it comes to taking some of our best yearlings. It's something I think we hve to watch carefully as AR plays itself out. I think we may eventually see a plateau on our improvement in antler size. I think that if that happens, we can hope that PA hunters will have become accustomed to not necesarly taking the first buck they see. Maybe thats too much to hope for. Who knows?

One more question Windwalker. In your area of Greene County, did you see all of those small (now sublegal) bucks in the same numbers before AR?

PS: tell your daughter congrats from me. I love to see the kids have success!

Windwalker7

We saw no where near as many bucks before AR. The AR did make a difference in the amount of bucks but we have noticed a serious drop in the amount of does. I know this is what the PGC wants.

Don't get me wrong. We see several big bucks during archery and while scouting. There are definitly more big bucks too.

Last season my daughter did not get her doe until 3:00 on the 1st day. In years previous she usually had a buck and doe by noon. Usually a doe by 9:00am.

We hunt in western Greene.

Pa Trophy Man

I pledge not to as well, I hate to see a button get whacked unless its a kids first deer.

BTBowhunter

Heres the link to the PGC study results showing that only 10% offirst year buckswere killed illegally and 18% of the yearling bucks total were harvested legally

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=482&q=162900

matter of fact here is the whole article summing up the Antlered deer mortality study:

Buck Survival in Pennsylvania

THE GAME COMMISSION and Penn State University have been conducting white-tailed deer research for the past 5 years. Currently, we are investigating effects of dispersal and survival of yearling bucks in WMUs 2D and 4D. Preliminary findings regarding dispersal and capture were published in the September and October Game News. In this article, we're looking at buck survival in relation to the antler restriction regulations initiated in 2002.
Thanks to modern radio transmitters, we can simultaneously monitor radio-collared bucks for movement and mortality. This is due to a sensor in the transmitter that changes the pulse (beeps per minute) of the transmitter after the collar has remained motionless for more than 4 hours. Upon hearing a signal with a "mortality" pulse, we locate the transmitter (still on the buck, we hope), and examine the deer. Examinations may be a simple physical exam for obvious injuries, or it may require a more complete necropsy at the Penn State Diagnostic Laboratory. After examination, we can often determine cause of death. The amount of time the collar has been motionless is also measured internally by the collar, which is translated to us with a series of beeps. This allows us to determine when death occurred.
The current buck study picks up where the fawn study left off. Over the past three winters, we placed transmitters on every buck we captured. For the study, best were button bucks 6 to 8 months old at capture. However, we also captured some yearling and even some 2-year-old bucks, which allowed us to monitor three age classes of bucks. Equipping them with radio transmitters allowed us to locate each buck, and determine whether he was dead or alive. Even though we could not see them with our eyes, we could "see" them with telemetry equipment.
The use of radio collars to measure survival rates is called a "known fate" study, because we - usually - can determine whether or not the animal is alive at a given point in time.
We deployed two full time capture teams in each study area to catch and radio-mark deer during the winter months after deer seasons have ended. (See September 2004 Game News for details describing the study areas, and the methods used to catch deer.) We captured 2,023 deer in the 3-year period. Of those, 551 were bucks.
Using radio telemetry, we can answer several questions about buck survival in conjunction with antler restrictions. Do antler restrictions protect yearling bucks during the hunting season, and what are the survival rates? Of those bucks that die during the hunting season, when do they die, and what do they die from? Do bucks that survive hunting season then survive to the following hunting season? We are now in the third year of the study, and we would like to share some of what we learned in the first two years.
The first crucial data provided by our radio-marked yearling bucks is the period between capture and the beginning of the fall deer season, generally the first weekend in October. More than 80 percent of males caught as button bucks survived to enter the fall archery season. Roadkills and winter stress were the main causes of mortality during this time. Fawns are normally the most vulnerable age class during winter, because they are small, and have lower fat reserves than older deer. However, if they survive the winter, odds of survival during the summer months are much greater. For adult bucks 18 months of age or older, survival rates were even better. More than 90 percent of adult bucks survived the winter and summer period before archery season.
The second piece of crucial data to our study is recorded during the hunting season. We were particularly interested in determining whether or not hunters were indiscriminately shooting bucks without first seeing whether or not they were legal. About 50 percent of the yearlings available at the beginning of the hunting season were alive when the late deer season closed in January. Bucks two years old or older were usually not protected by antler point restriction regulations. As a consequence, only about 20 percent of the older bucks survived the hunting seasons. However, under the previous buck hunting regulations, only about 20 percent of all antlered deer in the state survived the hunting season.
About 10 percent of yearling bucks were lost to illegal harvest. This means they were either shot by mistake and left in the woods, or they were shot by mistake, and reported by the hunter to the PGC as a mistake kill. There were no adult bucks illegally harvested thus far in the study.
Of the bucks available at the beginning of the archery season, about 18 percent of yearling bucks and 63 percent of adult bucks were legally harvested before the last hunting season closed in January. It is important to remember that the legal harvest of yearling bucks includes those that made the minimum requirements as defined by the antler restrictions, and those shot by juniors, hunters with disabled permits and resident hunters serving on active military duty.
The percentages listed in Figures 1 and 2 include what we call censored bucks. Censored bucks are bucks that were "lost," meaning we could no longer find them with our telemetry equipment. This does not necessarily mean they were dead. They could have been struck by a car and the collar was damaged, the collar could have malfunctioned, or the buck could have left the area or simply found a location where we could not pick up a signal. In this case we do not know the "fate" of the buck. It may be alive, or it could be dead, but we have no way of knowing for sure, so we do not consider it as either.
Management regulations and environmental conditions can vary significantly from year to year. This is one reason we do not conduct a 1-year study in wildlife research. Although we have tried to keep hunting regulations stable, the definition of a legal point for the brow tine changed from the first year to the second. The result of this would be greater protection of yearling bucks with current antler restriction regulations. We have no control over environmental conditions, such as fall mast production and winter severity. These conditions can modify winter survival by increasing or decreasing fat reserves and allowing or hampering movement in the winter months. These conditions also affect the following year's antler development.
Based on the first two years of this study, antler restriction regulations are allowing about 50 percent of yearling bucks to survive their first year as antlered deer. Just as important, Pennsylvania hunters appear to be adjusting well to the current antler restriction regulations. Although some illegal harvest does occur, it doesn't appear to be a valid explanation for antler restriction failure.
Based on our research, antler point restrictions are doing what they were designed to do, that being to protect at least some of the yearling bucks from harvest to allow them to enter their second year of life, and grow their second set of antlers. However, we will be collecting additional harvest data from the third year this fall, which will give a substantial boost to the sample sizes of yearling and adult age classes. About one of three bucks caught this past winter were already yearlings or older, so the adult age class will be well represented in the third year. After the 2004-05 hunting season, we will be analyzing all three years of data to look at the overall effect of antler restrictions on our buck population. Final data collection will occur during the 2005-06 hunting season, when the surviving yearlings from the 2004-05 hunting season become available for harvest as 2 year olds.
Critics of antler restriction regulations often tell us they do not work. They even tell us why they don't work, even though they have little if any data to support their claims. Results of this research will allow us to address these issues, and provide a comprehensive evaluation of antler restriction regulations on deer management.
- Eric Long, PSU Graduate Student; Dr. Chris Rosenberry, PGC Wildlife Biometrician; Bret Wallingford, PGC Deer Biologist








Content Last Modified on 12/28/2004 1:52:51 PM

jwh86

count me in!

AJ52

BTB it says 10% not 20% as was clearly stated in a prior post.
I have a problem on how they came up with the 10%. It really doesn't make any diff to me.Its the source and the data the source stated vs what was stated here in the forum as PGC figures.

The inacurate post has been deleted along with any follow ups so nobody gets the incorrect scoop.

BTBowhunter

I believe thats what I was trying to point out to correct the error posted earlier by deerfly. I'd bet it was10% at first because the number included both outright poaching AND kills in mistake for an AR legal deer. I beleive the actual numbers because these were radio collared deer that were located andnecropsied as to cause of deathwhen the mortality signal was triggered. This was also early on in our AR program and I believe that the mistake kills were more numerous at first but have dropped every year since AR started so 10% is probably unlikely now as more hunters get used to counting points before they shoot.

BTBowhunter

Thats pretty simple to explain. The 2050 WAS THE NUMBER TURNED IN FOR MISTAKE KILLS. the 10% figure was arrived at by adding ALL illegal kills including both reported and non reported mistake kills as well as other poaching..

[:'(]Once again, another deerfly attempt to take a thread and hijack it totally off topic by insertng half truths lies and distortions[:'(]

rybohunter

No BB's shot here.