More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
07-26-2006, 11:53 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 39
More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
Well, since Sylvan, The PGC and the "experts at Penn State" have determined there are no mountain lions in PA, I guess we have to take their word that they have traipsed every inch of wild land in PA to insure the lack of their existance. 
However, before they spout anymore of their "show me proof arguments", perhaps they should make a call to a few horse owners in the Williamsport area that found out the hard way that these critters DO INDEED PROWL OUR FORESTS![:-]
Within the past couple of years, there have been at least 3 different non-fatal attacks on horses in the Williamsport, PA area while the horses were in outdoor pastures at night. The most recent occurred acouple of weeks ago in the Tomb's Run area which lies in the middle of a triangle drawn between Williamsport, Jersey Shore and Salladasburg. (less than 30 miles from my parents' own horse farm - that is how we found out: the vet called to warn my mother about leaving her horses out in pastures at night.)
My mother spoke with a local veterinarian by the name of Robert Lewis whom has a veterinary practice in Jersey Shore, PA. Although they did not treat the animals, both vet Lewis and his wife, Mary, had the opportunity to review photos of the horses that were attacked. Some of the photos were taken by the horse owners, while others were taken by a "wildlife control expert" that was supposedly sent to the scenes of the attacks in place of PGC personnel. (even though it was the PGC that was called and asked to investigate.)
Upon review of the photos, both the "expert" and Dr. Lewis concluded that "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT THE INJURIES THESE ANIMALS SUSTAINED WERE CAUSED BY ANYTHING OTHER THAN A MOUNTAIN LION, BECAUSE A DOG, COYOTE, BOBCAT OR BEAR WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CREATE THE TYPES OF BOTH BITES & CLAW MARKS SO HIGH UP ON THE HORSES' NECK AREAS!" Whatever attacked these horses had razor sharp claws and teeth, and it was able to leap to the top and back of an adult horse's neck while hunting at night.
So Sylvan and all you "naysayers" if you can't believe the eyewitness testimony or photos of those on this site that have claimed to have seen them personally, why don't you pick up your phones and make some calls to either Vet Lewis or some of the horse owners whose animals were attacked? ...one of the horse owners is a guy by the name of Liddick (sp?) that lives in the Salladasburg area.
After you make your calls, please report back on here about what you found out. I am sure that there are plenty of people that would love to hearthe outcome. (or you can just hide behind your computer screen like cowards trying to lambaste or discredit the testimony of decent, honest andexperienced outdoors people that have seen them personally.)[:@]
- Gr8ful
However, before they spout anymore of their "show me proof arguments", perhaps they should make a call to a few horse owners in the Williamsport area that found out the hard way that these critters DO INDEED PROWL OUR FORESTS![:-]
Within the past couple of years, there have been at least 3 different non-fatal attacks on horses in the Williamsport, PA area while the horses were in outdoor pastures at night. The most recent occurred acouple of weeks ago in the Tomb's Run area which lies in the middle of a triangle drawn between Williamsport, Jersey Shore and Salladasburg. (less than 30 miles from my parents' own horse farm - that is how we found out: the vet called to warn my mother about leaving her horses out in pastures at night.)
My mother spoke with a local veterinarian by the name of Robert Lewis whom has a veterinary practice in Jersey Shore, PA. Although they did not treat the animals, both vet Lewis and his wife, Mary, had the opportunity to review photos of the horses that were attacked. Some of the photos were taken by the horse owners, while others were taken by a "wildlife control expert" that was supposedly sent to the scenes of the attacks in place of PGC personnel. (even though it was the PGC that was called and asked to investigate.)
Upon review of the photos, both the "expert" and Dr. Lewis concluded that "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT THE INJURIES THESE ANIMALS SUSTAINED WERE CAUSED BY ANYTHING OTHER THAN A MOUNTAIN LION, BECAUSE A DOG, COYOTE, BOBCAT OR BEAR WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CREATE THE TYPES OF BOTH BITES & CLAW MARKS SO HIGH UP ON THE HORSES' NECK AREAS!" Whatever attacked these horses had razor sharp claws and teeth, and it was able to leap to the top and back of an adult horse's neck while hunting at night.
So Sylvan and all you "naysayers" if you can't believe the eyewitness testimony or photos of those on this site that have claimed to have seen them personally, why don't you pick up your phones and make some calls to either Vet Lewis or some of the horse owners whose animals were attacked? ...one of the horse owners is a guy by the name of Liddick (sp?) that lives in the Salladasburg area.
After you make your calls, please report back on here about what you found out. I am sure that there are plenty of people that would love to hearthe outcome. (or you can just hide behind your computer screen like cowards trying to lambaste or discredit the testimony of decent, honest andexperienced outdoors people that have seen them personally.)[:@]
- Gr8ful
07-26-2006, 12:34 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
See if you can get the pictures and post them.I have no idea if a few exist in Pa or not.Anything is possible but none of the pictures posted on here have been anything even close to credible.I would imagine a true trained professional would be able to distinguish what made the wounds.I would hardly call testimony fromany local vet or "expert" credible unless they have practicle experience investigating mountain lion attacks,which is unlikely in this state.I have no doubt that the people that areinvolved in this incident and those that claim to see them actually believe they're dealing with a mountain lion.They may be but I'll remain skepticaluntil they come up with solid proof that can't be disputed.The idea that there may be a few hereor there isn't really the argument.It wouldn't surprise me one bit if a pet or two was released illegally or if some eco-extremist wacko or groupwas trying to establish a population.I just have a hard time believing there's a breeding population and I have nodoubt that the PGC wouldn't be behind it.
I don't think people realize how hard it is to introduce a few animals and expect them to take off.A released animal that was raised in captivity has a poor chance at survival.A few years ago wild pigs started showing up near my mother's house in Tunkhannock.I know several people that saw them(as many as 30 at a time)and a couple that even killed them.ThePGC admitted their existence but their origin is unknown.Pigs reproduce like crazy and they aren't dumb.They were seen for a couple years and now they seem to have vanished for the most part.For those that doubt this,the times leader in Wilkes barre did a story on this on May 26 complete with pictures of dead hogs.(I have the article in front of me and I'd be glad to fax anyone a copy)The point is,someone tried to establish a hog population by letting a bunch go in the same area.Hogs are very adapable and they breed like crazy but now they're gone for the most part.Ijust have a hard time believing that we have a breeding population of mountain lions.
Perhaps those horses really did get attacked by a mountain lion.It's entirely possible that someidiot got a hold of one and let it go.It's just going to take more than the testimony of a couple experts from a state that isn't known to have a mountain lion population to prove it.If someone would have went over that horse with a fine toothed comb,it's likely that there was evidence in the form of hair from whatever attacked the animal.My guess is that a true expert would have lookedat more than just bite and claw marks.In any event,I hope they get to the bottom of itand I hope your mother's horses stay safe.Whatever did it,definately seems like a problem in that area.
I don't think people realize how hard it is to introduce a few animals and expect them to take off.A released animal that was raised in captivity has a poor chance at survival.A few years ago wild pigs started showing up near my mother's house in Tunkhannock.I know several people that saw them(as many as 30 at a time)and a couple that even killed them.ThePGC admitted their existence but their origin is unknown.Pigs reproduce like crazy and they aren't dumb.They were seen for a couple years and now they seem to have vanished for the most part.For those that doubt this,the times leader in Wilkes barre did a story on this on May 26 complete with pictures of dead hogs.(I have the article in front of me and I'd be glad to fax anyone a copy)The point is,someone tried to establish a hog population by letting a bunch go in the same area.Hogs are very adapable and they breed like crazy but now they're gone for the most part.Ijust have a hard time believing that we have a breeding population of mountain lions.
Perhaps those horses really did get attacked by a mountain lion.It's entirely possible that someidiot got a hold of one and let it go.It's just going to take more than the testimony of a couple experts from a state that isn't known to have a mountain lion population to prove it.If someone would have went over that horse with a fine toothed comb,it's likely that there was evidence in the form of hair from whatever attacked the animal.My guess is that a true expert would have lookedat more than just bite and claw marks.In any event,I hope they get to the bottom of itand I hope your mother's horses stay safe.Whatever did it,definately seems like a problem in that area.
07-26-2006, 12:40 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 576
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
A buddy told me of a recent 'mtn lion attack on a horse' that his brother in-law had a first hand dealing with. I checked into it some more and talked with some other people involved. Turns out bear tracks and bear scat were found in the area.
I don't see where we have the burden of proving they don't exist when no one has seemed to come forward and prove they do exist.
I don't see where we have the burden of proving they don't exist when no one has seemed to come forward and prove they do exist.
07-26-2006, 12:56 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
Are black bears known for attacking horses? I've not heard of that. I guess one could if it had a mind to. Black bears can have VERY sharp claws. Did you ever see what they can do to a tree? I believe there are a few Mt. Lions in the state. How they got here, who knows? I know if I see one it will die from sudden perforated lung syndrome.
07-26-2006, 01:11 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
Bears do crazy things.I know a guy thatraises deer and hada 115lb bear climb into the pen about a month ago.They tried everything they could to get the bear out but eventually just ended up shooting it.He felt he had no choice because his deer were going nuts.Could a bear craw up on a horses back?I have no idea but they sure can climb trees fast,especially the smaller ones.
If you see a mountain lion and end up killing it,keep it quiet because they're protected if they do exist.All wildlife that was once indigenous to Pa is protected whether there's still a population or not.
If you see a mountain lion and end up killing it,keep it quiet because they're protected if they do exist.All wildlife that was once indigenous to Pa is protected whether there's still a population or not.
07-26-2006, 01:14 PM
#6
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 142
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
Gr8ful Deer......I have sent you a PM, please check your box.
I will also respond more to this post this evening!
Cougardaville
http://www.Trackincats.com
I will also respond more to this post this evening!
Cougardaville
http://www.Trackincats.com
07-26-2006, 04:42 PM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
One of the most surprising culprits in horse, and cattle attacks were not even mentioned above...hogs. However, it was conclusively a mtn. lion....No offense, but if one of the leading culprits in cow/horse attacks weren't even considered, how can you take this expert serious?
Tusk damage can surprisingly look like animal claws, and hogs can damage animals much higher off the ground than people would guess. I've seen firsthand damage of both a horse and beef cattle this year from hogs, and it looked like a bear mauling / mtn. lion attack. The tusks repeatedly gore in a motion that has claw like patterns (up and down motion of the head creates a slicing effect...which is a common action of hogs as they attack/defend), and the tusks rarely penetrate the victim, unless low to the ground (picture a horse and cow, not exactly a low center of mass). Not to mention....they bite something fierce...
I find it funny that hogs were in the same situation in NY as mtn. lions were. People say they've seen them, although there were no released offerings from any gov't source, and they were'nt around naturally.
Yet, guess what...they've been shot, found dead, and there's physical proof they are around. Yet, nobody seems to catch, shoot, or find the yeti...errr mountain lions.
Tusk damage can surprisingly look like animal claws, and hogs can damage animals much higher off the ground than people would guess. I've seen firsthand damage of both a horse and beef cattle this year from hogs, and it looked like a bear mauling / mtn. lion attack. The tusks repeatedly gore in a motion that has claw like patterns (up and down motion of the head creates a slicing effect...which is a common action of hogs as they attack/defend), and the tusks rarely penetrate the victim, unless low to the ground (picture a horse and cow, not exactly a low center of mass). Not to mention....they bite something fierce...
I find it funny that hogs were in the same situation in NY as mtn. lions were. People say they've seen them, although there were no released offerings from any gov't source, and they were'nt around naturally.
Yet, guess what...they've been shot, found dead, and there's physical proof they are around. Yet, nobody seems to catch, shoot, or find the yeti...errr mountain lions.
07-26-2006, 07:00 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
Within the past couple of years, there have been at least 3 different non-fatal attacks on horses in the Williamsport, PA
Who is the expert?
Where are the photos?
At this point it is just another story and speculation.
07-26-2006, 07:33 PM
#10
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeast PA
Posts: 633
RE: More Mountain Lions In PA Discussion
OK, here's the truth.
Have you ever seen the movie "Cat People".
The PA Mountain Lions able to change their appearance and are only in their cat form at night. They look like regular people during the day. But just like teens everywhere, the young ones are a bit rebelious and occasionally go out on the town. Unfortunately, since their hunting and killing skills are not developed, they often only manage to wound their prey. (One of the reasons that the adults try to keep them from taking livestock. Also because they don't want messy incounters and nobody notices a few dozen missing deer. Which, by the way is the true reason some people have been noticing/complaining about lessening numbers of deer inthe woods) [8D]
Quite simply, it's just purrrrrrfect!
Have you ever seen the movie "Cat People".
The PA Mountain Lions able to change their appearance and are only in their cat form at night. They look like regular people during the day. But just like teens everywhere, the young ones are a bit rebelious and occasionally go out on the town. Unfortunately, since their hunting and killing skills are not developed, they often only manage to wound their prey. (One of the reasons that the adults try to keep them from taking livestock. Also because they don't want messy incounters and nobody notices a few dozen missing deer. Which, by the way is the true reason some people have been noticing/complaining about lessening numbers of deer inthe woods) [8D]
Quite simply, it's just purrrrrrfect!