Buckshot

Never called you a punk kid, said you came across as one.
and i know darn well what a B.S.

Nope not to shabby at all, but I dont think Id be braggin about it. But considerwhat myself and some of themyhunting buddys have harvested, My tally for the last ten years, is 48 deer,, 1 bull elk and 14 gobblers and 18 fall birds. And there are guys that put me to shame.

This discussion wasnt about animals hunting humans, its about whether or not animals can learn to fear man. Ive given you example after example but for some reason you keep glossing over what the rest of us KNOWN are FACTS.

Though sometimes I wish the world were flat. This old guy would still leave you in the dust whether it be in the mountains or in the gym, maybe not in 10 years, but now it would be no problem. Your typical of your generation, you read stuff in a book and then climb up on the hightest mountain and try to make the world believe it, without ever putting it to use in real life, I just hope I didnt act like you when I was your age, oh wait if I had my dad would have smacked the living crap out of me. Youve given myself and the rest of the men on here a good chuckle. Either way Im done, Ive proved my point in spades.

Pa Trophy Man

Well maybe our whole probelm is what exactly where discussing, because i was under the impression were discussing whether or not hunting animals would make them any less or more likely to attack you. Call it spades or what you will, you haven't proved that in any case.

Im not bragging about anything, i don't comment about much of anything on this board other than offering congratulations to people posting pictures of their kills, anyone around here can tellyou that. As far as having an inflated view of myself, i have no more an inflated view of myself than you do, you were the first to refer to me a 'babe' in the woods (i'm assuming you met baby, and weren't hittinig on me). My whole point to that comment, was i spend an enourmous amount of time in the woods and im far from a newcomer to it.

But your right, this thread is pretty dead and on the off chance you would wish to continue it, feel free to PM me since you have resorted to suggesting your going to physically best me. This isn't just something i read in a book, its something being taught in schools all across the country and people just like me are being paid all over the world to analyze probelms just like this. As far as my dad smacking me for being passoniate about my work, well bring it on Papa

Phil from Maine

I am not writing to slam no one but I am curious how a black bear
could learn to climb to the top of a pole and sit there pulling a rope
on a bucket to get a small Ice cream cone if they can only do so through
there instincts? Or a papa black bear could push moma and baby bear
around in a chair. These were wild black bears that became orphaned
and were brought in to show and clear up some miths about them. They
could be seen at Clarks Trading Post in N.H.
I believe it would be almost like a moose attacking an oil barrel or trying
to breed with a cow. Those things appear stupid but if you drive down a road where they have been hunted then insticnts take over cause they run from you.

hillbillyhunter1

All wild animals are opportunistic and will eventually always take the easy route unless they are deterred through fear of humans, etc. All animals can learn what that route is.

As someone pointed out in another forum, the wolves in question are Canadian Gray wolves and are substantially larger than the wolves that once inhabited the Rocky Mountains, so it is not a matter of re-introduction. It is a matter of Re-location. Taxpayer funded of course.

livbucks

If I say "hey" to my dog in a certain tone, it will drop in it's tracks and roll over in a submissive gesture. It has learned to fear the idea of upsetting me. No, I never struck the dog, don't even ask that. My voice is all the cue that the dog ever got from me. What i am getting at is that if a momma black bear has been pursued by man, it will give cues to it's young that man is to be feared. If theindividual bear that somehow missed this point from momma, disregards man and does not avoid man,it wouldtend to get eliminated from the gene pool rather quickly. This natural selection over time will breed a group of animals that instinctively fears man from one generation to the next, provided the fear is reinforced any time it is challenged in a given encounter. If man suddenly alters their behavior toward them, this conditioned response can be reversed rather quickly, as animals are extremely intellegent when it comes to interacting with their environment. True what you said PA that if a bear attacks a man and is killed, he would not communicate this to other bears. But..neither would he pass his traits on to other bears. Don't sell animals short either. They absolutely do have the ability to learn a behavior from one another over time.
The original thread was about wolves killing some poor guy's dogs, by the way. Funny how these things take on a life of their own sometimes.

Phil from Maine

I do not feel I was trying to change anything, The point I was making is that animals will learn and not entirely by instinct alone. I know what the subject line states thank you. If you read through all the post here you would of seen what Itrying to point outin regards to animals ability to learn. And yes it is a known fact here that animals can get a costumed to humans.

livbucks

Actually Phil, I wasn't addressing you but PA Trophy Man.

Phil from Maine

Sorry livbucks

Pa Trophy Man

Im not arguing animals can't learn but they don't learn the same way you or I would. They learn through conditioning. I was never arguing the fact that animals can or can't learn anything- they aren't learning to fear 'humans.' What they consider a threat from you is no different than a threat from a rattle snake or another bear or wolf. But let's examine the reasons why these predators attack people...

1. protecting their young (instinct)
2. Feeling cornered or threatened (instinct)
3. Protecting a kill (instict)
4. Predatation which is the rarest of all of them (instict)

If it were the case that these animals were actively seeking humans as a food source, don't you think there would be a hell of a lot more attacks especially in places where human/predator encounters are high?

The point im arguing is hunting/shooting at these animals is no more or less likely to make them attack you if they are protecting their young, feeling cornered or threatened, protecting or kill, or choosing you for a meal. To suggest hunting pressure could change these things, would be suggesting that you are changing the very nature of the beast.

The fact is, if you know the way to react when you do encounter one your chances of getting attacked are no better than your golden retriever attacking you. Hunting them isn't going alter the way their brain reactsto a threatingsituation, unless they start evolving

hillbillyhunter1

You may have much "book learning" but you have much yet to learn grasshopper

Sorry but over time if humans aren't allowed to hunt/harass dangerous predators. The humans that may have been seen originally as a much bigger threat than, say, a rattlesnake (which predators may take measures to avoid yetit won't make them run over the next ridge like a hunterwould during some open season), are now seen as something potentially defenseless.

I'm not talking about specific Wolf attacks on humans although there is potential for that if problems keep escalating. What I am talking about is wolves becoming BOLDER and BOLDER when it comes to their dealings with man. Opportunistic. If wolves LEARN that they are going to be shot at if they attempt to kill calves in the spring, they'll be less likely to attempt it. If they LEARN that there will be no repercussions (because of Federal Mandate) they are more likely to attempt it. They are also more likely to use their INSTINCTUAL OPPORTUNISM to "push the envelope" when it comes to what they can get away with when they have NO NEGATIVE CONDITIONING.

I feel like I'm starting to write the "little golden book of wildlife management" as this stuff should be relatively simple to understand.

good luck