Delaware Landowners going too far!
05-23-2006, 08:13 AM
#61
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 801
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
I guess that wasn't my last post.
Duckmastor- I think we'll have to agree that we see this from different sides. I don't see a problem with the woman in the article clearing the trees and habitat from HER land to raise its value. She obviously bought that land as an investment and feared that its value could be lost if she was unable to sell or develop it. If throwing a coat of paint on your house would net you an extra $10k when you go to sell it, you'd do it. While you may look ate HER land and see it as different then some other typed of owned property, many do not. Just like a car you buy it, pay taxes on it, insure it and when you feel like it you sell it. Also like a car there are rules to protect the environment (very limited albeit) and other surrounding people but as long as you follow the rules and laws, it is your property and you can do what you want. Such as chop every single tree down on your land.
AJ52 - If youthink land values will decrease, you are just flat wrong. While your property value could and may take short term dips over the long haul you can bet your last dollar on land values increasing. As it was stated, you can't make more of it which means that its value will only increase over time. That is one of the main reasons people buy land, it WILL increase in value over time. Remember, while you may cry inside when you lose a farm to houses and think no one will want to live there now... it is still more open than the city people are moving from. It is purely relative.
Rem1100 - I don't think it is fair to lump "country people" as a whole as not having enough money to buy land with the "developers". This is not the case across the board. I know many farmers from Iowa to Washington to New Hampshire that make much more money than the average "city/suburbanite". Of course the ratio is the same as with information workers, it is always the 80 / 20 rule. 80% of the money is made by 20% of the people which in my experience is the same for farmers and country folk. My point is it is not for lack of opportunity, as any person who has worked very hard and watched their credit and took a few risks others may not have the stomach to make (such as buyinga neighboring farm) there is currently and hopefully always will be opportunity to buy and own your piece of the "pie".
and finally-
As a veteran myself, as was my father and grandfather I promise you that I will never forget that. My point is that just using your "voice" from the sidelines does not entitle you to be heard. But using your voice to gather other voices and the hands, heart and minds behind their voices to a cause, such as preserving open space, is the only way to influence this particular issue. 1000 people yelling from the top of their lungs off their porch won't secure 1 acre of open space. Get 10 people together who put thier mouths, money and votes together and you could buy a piece of open land and open it up for eveyones use and potentially recruit more mouths and money to your cause. Of course this takes "effort" not just yelling from the porch.... which I believe was my beef with this post.
For the record, open space is VERY important to me. But I do not blind myself with the "wish it was" or the "shoulda" or "woulda", it tales a lot of effort and money to make a difference. I invite any and all to come down off the porch.
Duckmastor- I think we'll have to agree that we see this from different sides. I don't see a problem with the woman in the article clearing the trees and habitat from HER land to raise its value. She obviously bought that land as an investment and feared that its value could be lost if she was unable to sell or develop it. If throwing a coat of paint on your house would net you an extra $10k when you go to sell it, you'd do it. While you may look ate HER land and see it as different then some other typed of owned property, many do not. Just like a car you buy it, pay taxes on it, insure it and when you feel like it you sell it. Also like a car there are rules to protect the environment (very limited albeit) and other surrounding people but as long as you follow the rules and laws, it is your property and you can do what you want. Such as chop every single tree down on your land.
AJ52 - If youthink land values will decrease, you are just flat wrong. While your property value could and may take short term dips over the long haul you can bet your last dollar on land values increasing. As it was stated, you can't make more of it which means that its value will only increase over time. That is one of the main reasons people buy land, it WILL increase in value over time. Remember, while you may cry inside when you lose a farm to houses and think no one will want to live there now... it is still more open than the city people are moving from. It is purely relative.
Rem1100 - I don't think it is fair to lump "country people" as a whole as not having enough money to buy land with the "developers". This is not the case across the board. I know many farmers from Iowa to Washington to New Hampshire that make much more money than the average "city/suburbanite". Of course the ratio is the same as with information workers, it is always the 80 / 20 rule. 80% of the money is made by 20% of the people which in my experience is the same for farmers and country folk. My point is it is not for lack of opportunity, as any person who has worked very hard and watched their credit and took a few risks others may not have the stomach to make (such as buyinga neighboring farm) there is currently and hopefully always will be opportunity to buy and own your piece of the "pie".
and finally-
EVERYONE'S voice counts... too many fellow vets gave their life to assure that..don't YOU ever forget that.
For the record, open space is VERY important to me. But I do not blind myself with the "wish it was" or the "shoulda" or "woulda", it tales a lot of effort and money to make a difference. I invite any and all to come down off the porch.
05-23-2006, 02:50 PM
#62
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wilmington Delaware USA
Posts: 699
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
I think is article addresses what AJ was talking about a few posts back.
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060523/NEWS/60523001/1006
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060523/NEWS/60523001/1006
05-23-2006, 11:14 PM
#63
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Slower Lower Delaware 1st State
Posts: 1,776
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
No - land values do not normaly decrese.The bubble pops on the appreciation rate.Home/Land values do plumitt in comparison to what they could have appreciated to if not deluged with unfavorable ill planned developement and density.
Thats a fact Jack.If anyone here doesn't understand that concept on land/home value appreciation rates than you live in the land of Oz!
MA Jay - How many,what percentage is your "many famers that make much more money". I would say from my experiance and the hundreds of farmers whom I've done business with your many is a very few indeed and far less than the 80/20 rule.The average farmer(the majority IMO)puts in twice the man hours,10 times the debt and risk factorsr(mother nature),no benifits or holidays to produce from there land what the average burbanite can make in one year with all the bennys attached.
Thats a fact Jack.If anyone here doesn't understand that concept on land/home value appreciation rates than you live in the land of Oz!
MA Jay - How many,what percentage is your "many famers that make much more money". I would say from my experiance and the hundreds of farmers whom I've done business with your many is a very few indeed and far less than the 80/20 rule.The average farmer(the majority IMO)puts in twice the man hours,10 times the debt and risk factorsr(mother nature),no benifits or holidays to produce from there land what the average burbanite can make in one year with all the bennys attached.
05-23-2006, 11:30 PM
#64
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Slower Lower Delaware 1st State
Posts: 1,776
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
Yes - Duck that is exactly what I was reffering to - The rape and pilage of Milford by its Dead Head City Council.Annex a farm,rezone,increase density and for every $1.00 you bring in it cost approx $1.20 to support it(current predictions).
BTW - another land grab Rape and Pilage is going on in Cambridge Maryland/Dorchester County in the Black Water Wildlife Refuge.They are bound and determined to develop that land(been approved).Some of the most prestine(sp)wetlands and ecosytem on the East Coast and they want to fill it with concrete,nails and vinyl siding! A real travisty.All for the "Almighty $$Buck$$" as my Father used to say.
It ain't over yet.All this land is part of the Chesapeake Bay.Needless to say the local Yocal council has a huge fight on there hands before the 1st dozer cranks up.
BTW - another land grab Rape and Pilage is going on in Cambridge Maryland/Dorchester County in the Black Water Wildlife Refuge.They are bound and determined to develop that land(been approved).Some of the most prestine(sp)wetlands and ecosytem on the East Coast and they want to fill it with concrete,nails and vinyl siding! A real travisty.All for the "Almighty $$Buck$$" as my Father used to say.
It ain't over yet.All this land is part of the Chesapeake Bay.Needless to say the local Yocal council has a huge fight on there hands before the 1st dozer cranks up.
05-24-2006, 05:40 AM
#65
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,188
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
ORIGINAL: bawanajim
I find it ironic that the youth of today think that the gooberman is the place to look when you don't agree on how things are going.You chose to live in an area that has plenty of high paying jobs but you tell the people that live there that they can not cash in on this progression.If these land vales are going up at the rates you express it seems a no brainer buy some land sit on it for 10 years and then reap the profits.
There is no differance it what you want the gooberman to do for you ( provide a place to hunt & fish )than inner city housing for the poor.Neither is in the constitution & neither will work.
There seems to bemore people that want to buy these homes than people that want to save the trees.You might want to move to an area where this trend is reversed.
I find it ironic that the youth of today think that the gooberman is the place to look when you don't agree on how things are going.You chose to live in an area that has plenty of high paying jobs but you tell the people that live there that they can not cash in on this progression.If these land vales are going up at the rates you express it seems a no brainer buy some land sit on it for 10 years and then reap the profits.
There is no differance it what you want the gooberman to do for you ( provide a place to hunt & fish )than inner city housing for the poor.Neither is in the constitution & neither will work.
There seems to bemore people that want to buy these homes than people that want to save the trees.You might want to move to an area where this trend is reversed.
I own land in the 26th fastest growing county in the nation.Berkeley Co. WVa.... 200K will get you under 10 acres..NO HOME... and I WILL sell my land for the best $$, when time comes..'cuz it's making the best of a bad situation..I can't stop the growth, but I CAN reap the harvest of the influx of slickers. I'm gonna make 'em PAY thru the nose, and they will. But this is beter than playing the stckmarket.. they ain't makin' no more land......
you wanna talk wildlife sanctuary... can't happen. inevitably, you'll be overpopulated by game as exsisting lands disappear..it's happening here,now. you cannot create a managerie & stock pile game...commedable effort, but it won't work due to the stress on the ground. it takes a LOT of land to support any sizable population of animals. 150 Ac is a fair pc, but won't support much, if all your neighbors lands' turn to houses on all sides.
.....come take a look for yourself,Bro......
05-24-2006, 05:46 AM
#66
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,188
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
ORIGINAL: AJ52
MA Jay - How many,what percentage is your "many famers that make much more money". I would say from my experiance and the hundreds of farmers whom I've done business with your many is a very few indeed and far less than the 80/20 rule.The average farmer(the majority IMO)puts in twice the man hours,10 times the debt and risk factorsr(mother nature),no benifits or holidays to produce from there land what the average burbanite can make in one year with all the bennys attached.
MA Jay - How many,what percentage is your "many famers that make much more money". I would say from my experiance and the hundreds of farmers whom I've done business with your many is a very few indeed and far less than the 80/20 rule.The average farmer(the majority IMO)puts in twice the man hours,10 times the debt and risk factorsr(mother nature),no benifits or holidays to produce from there land what the average burbanite can make in one year with all the bennys attached.
05-24-2006, 06:41 AM
#67
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 801
RE: Delaware Landowners going too far!
Rem1100 - I do agree with you that needing food from another nation would be a very bad thing, but currently the US creates an enormous surplus each year. Here in New England we are seeing a rise, not a huge one but a rise in small organic farms which are proving profitable. I hope the trend continues andmy family does all it canto support this by buying direct.
AJ52, so it seems we came to an agreement that land values are not going to decrease. As Rem said, it is the shift in populations away from cities that is creating the need and hence the value increases. Without the shift theland value does not appreciate as much. It is the need for those home, densely built or not that is creating the value appreciation.
To my point of some successful farmers, I'll use 2 friends as examples. I have 1 friend in the finger lakes area of NY that runs a 350 head dairy farm on 1700 acres. The property has been in the family for 3 generations and is "owned". They sell off all male calves, and run a tanker truck every other day of milk off the farm. He "owns" litterally millions of dollars in equipment, with the occasional new pieces being financed. He gets some small tax freedoms and does get some subsidizing for land use projects.Is he and his brother rich by some standards?The 2 families may pull in$80k in cash each, but they are worth 10'sof millions of dollars. That is quite a bit more worth than most suburbanites.
Another friend in Northeast Iowa runs beef cattle, 200 + head.He bought this farm with his wifein the same area his family has been farming for years. Now I will admit that the beef market fluctuates greatly, but when he sells off beef he typically does quite well, well enough he is looking at buying a smaller, 300 acre piece next door for $350k. He could swing it. Now, partly this is because he can make some money of the next door farm, but how many suburbanites can afford to buy the house next door as "rental income"? A few, but not many.
I am not saying all farmers are rich, they bust their butts for what they make. That being said, if they work hard AND smart, make good business decisions... they can make as much as any other working stiff in the system with the added benefit that what they are doing for work is wholly owned or at the very least an asset worth far more than what the average Joe has. It takes a special kind of person to do well at farming, as unlike other jobs it requires 100% self motivation each and every day. I think the problem with many farmers isn't that they can't make money, it's just that like in everything else in life, there are some hard working people, there are some decent effort but not motivated people and then there are slackers.
Which comes back to my point with the woman who owns the land this thread is about. She did what she wanted with her land. Made a few bucks on her trees and thumbed her nose at the local government. All legal and within her rights.
AJ52, so it seems we came to an agreement that land values are not going to decrease. As Rem said, it is the shift in populations away from cities that is creating the need and hence the value increases. Without the shift theland value does not appreciate as much. It is the need for those home, densely built or not that is creating the value appreciation.
To my point of some successful farmers, I'll use 2 friends as examples. I have 1 friend in the finger lakes area of NY that runs a 350 head dairy farm on 1700 acres. The property has been in the family for 3 generations and is "owned". They sell off all male calves, and run a tanker truck every other day of milk off the farm. He "owns" litterally millions of dollars in equipment, with the occasional new pieces being financed. He gets some small tax freedoms and does get some subsidizing for land use projects.Is he and his brother rich by some standards?The 2 families may pull in$80k in cash each, but they are worth 10'sof millions of dollars. That is quite a bit more worth than most suburbanites.
Another friend in Northeast Iowa runs beef cattle, 200 + head.He bought this farm with his wifein the same area his family has been farming for years. Now I will admit that the beef market fluctuates greatly, but when he sells off beef he typically does quite well, well enough he is looking at buying a smaller, 300 acre piece next door for $350k. He could swing it. Now, partly this is because he can make some money of the next door farm, but how many suburbanites can afford to buy the house next door as "rental income"? A few, but not many.
I am not saying all farmers are rich, they bust their butts for what they make. That being said, if they work hard AND smart, make good business decisions... they can make as much as any other working stiff in the system with the added benefit that what they are doing for work is wholly owned or at the very least an asset worth far more than what the average Joe has. It takes a special kind of person to do well at farming, as unlike other jobs it requires 100% self motivation each and every day. I think the problem with many farmers isn't that they can't make money, it's just that like in everything else in life, there are some hard working people, there are some decent effort but not motivated people and then there are slackers.
Which comes back to my point with the woman who owns the land this thread is about. She did what she wanted with her land. Made a few bucks on her trees and thumbed her nose at the local government. All legal and within her rights.
