jhoffman

NO this pic is not from NY or PA just so people do not think I am trying to imply that. This is a pic of a tree'd lion in Idaho - my uncle took the pic.

Bill Yox

Airborneguy,I dont think youknow much about the chain I spoke of. Also, I hate to say it butifyou wereinsulted by my last post, its sort of like the phrase "if the shoe fits...", as I certainly wasnt directing it at anyone.

The highest predator on the food chain displaces the predators under it, especially once the main food source is comprimised. Deer numbers are down, deer are the obvious first choice for mt lions. Small game in that region is quite cyclic, the lynx program proved that quite accurately. The transported lynx promptly walk off and out of NY. Bobcats survive just like the coyotes, on rodents. Fox are on a low cycle now in that region and would feed on those same rodents. Thats just how it is.

Bill Yox

To airborneguy and others...I should clarify...any posts and comments I make in here should not be considered a personalattack on anyone in here. Im just banging opinions around with you all. If I sound short, its probably my "love for typing" that has me short with words. I hope you all understand.

Now, I figure that if any of you really think we have a population of wild lions in NY, you must be half baked, and if you think the DEC placed them here, you are loonie...not that theres anything else wrong with you! Ok, I hope you read the tongue in cheek there...

Airborneguy

All right no offense taken then. BUT, I still think that its possible. I'm not going around saying that it is definate, and certainly don't think that the DEC would do it on their own. Huntingrevenue is too important to a lot of smaller towns upstate, especially out of staters coming in. The DEC would never intentionally damage the deer herd and risk losing that revenue (hell hunting is down too much already).

doughboysigep

Bill,

where in this thread did you see "wild population" stated?? A population would mean breeding and that is one thing that most would agree isn't happening (most likely). to me, it is really simple - it is POSSIBLE that there could be a cougar or 2 wandering the northeast countryside. 1 or 2 cougars wouldn't put a big dent in the deer herd nor have a hard time finding food. all the yotes and bobcats aren't eating all of the mice and critters. my 2 cents

Windwalker7

The highest predator displacing smaller predators?

Grizzly, black bear, wolves, wolverine, lynx, all of those predators are competing in Alaska right now. Who is displacing who?

Black bear, cougar, coyote, grizzly competing in Yellowstone too. Who is winning out there?

Heck let's look at Africa. Lots of predators there.

I think the food sorce is the same for all 3 areas. Even if some places have different species for prey, they compete for the same ones.

PA probably has a higher deer population thanmost of the states out west yet they support coyotes and mountain lions. Why can't eastern states support a cougar population?

House cats do quite well when released into the wild. I'm sure that most hunters on here have seen a house cat or 2 many miles from the nearest house, while out hunting. I don't think a cougar would be much different.
As far as breeding pairs, I don't know I'm sure nature would take its course if a male and female were to meet.



I think logic is speaking for itself.

Airborneguy

certainly true with house cats, they live anywhere.

Bill Yox

Ill stick by what I said. Predators do run the other off. Ask ANY trapper what happened to reds and greys once coyotes took over. Higher end predators prey on the predators below them. Coyotes will run off and/or destroy fox, fox and coyotes both prey on cats, in the north lynx drive bobcats out of their range. Its not just my idea guys, this stuff is all documented.

I agree with all of you, its possible, just not too likely, in the sense that its regular. As for who said "wild populations" again, as we have all stated so many times in the past, debate in these threads often have some flavor from other similar posts on the subject already posted. I just carried it over. If the only reason you made a new post was to say "its possible that a lion could exist in PA or NY and live"...well, ok, I guess it could, and you must be correct.

jhoffman

Bill -
I have to agree I have been a trapper since I was 14 and I have notice that the red and grey fox population has dropped off noticeable since the coyote population really took hold in WNY. One thing I noticed was that it seemed that for whatever reason is that the fox population is sparadically strong. What I mean by this is it is similar to the Phesant and Turkey populations - some areas are still supporting a strong fox population while other areas are supporting a strong coyote population and even though there is nothing stopping a coyote from going in to the area were the fox still are they just seem to leave well enough alone. I have notices the same with the turkey and phesent around where I live.

Another thing - the lynx program you are talking about - just from what I have heard about it took place in the Adirondaks correct me if I am wrong because I admit I am not 100% on all the details here.

I have relatives in cannan, NY - it is right on the Mass. border - they have a Lynx on their property that has been spotted by them many times and has even been seen sunning itself in their back yard - This alone don't seem really strange to me what I do find strange is that over about 5-6 years the coyote population has really taken off there. They are seeing more bobcats than they ever have even though they have always had them around, They have seen this lynx around and have seen several fishers on their property, and have even noticed more than just the occational wandering black bear - they are seeing black bear pretty regularly and last year saw a sow with cubs on the property.

Now if you look for Cannan on a site like mapquest and see where it is compared to the Adirondaks that are know by fact to support all of these animals you will probably ask your self the same question I have asked myself about these animals seeming to thrive in an area where the deer numbers have been dropping for years along with all small game but still these predators are moving into this area and coexisting with each other and seemingly doing very well. WHY? Although a 5-6 year time frame is probably not long enough to see what will be the end result in this case it leads me to the opinion that mt lions could easily co exist with other predators in NY and PA " IF " they were here.

Windwalker7

I was told by a trapper friend of mine, several years ago, that mange had really takenits toll on fox. Here in PA we now have a bobcat season because the bobcat population is on the rise. So is the coyote population.


I'm sorry. I don't agree with the theory that the highest predator displaces the smaller predators. If that were true, places like Alaska, Yellowstone, Africa would not have all the predators that they have.

In Alaska the Grizzly is probably at the top of the food chain, or the Kodiak if you're along the coast. But the lowly black bear population is not suffering at all. Its been that way for a thousand years.

Besides, even if that theory were correct, the cougar population, in the northeast, is not high enough to put a dent in the coyote population.