bowhunter2117

Yes I hunt 2C and I shot multiple doe in the past. the bigger picture is who reviewed the data and came to the brilliant conclusion that WMU 2C still was overpopulated. And authorized a 50% increase in doe tags sold only to see a 14% drop in the doe kill? This was gross mismanagement and only goes to prove the PAGC has no credible grasp on the deer population. The sad part is the apathy that is shown today because without any accountability the PAGC is destine to repeat it. My only hope is that they do not repeat it in the woods near you. The question we as PA hunters should be asking is who authorized the doe tag increase in 2C and the other WMU only to see a drop in the harvest before they make the same mistake in the WMU you hunt in.

jcchartboy

Instead of qoutingnumbers that have no tangible relationship to this conversation why don't you mention the actual harvest figures?

I assume you haven't posted them because you haven't done the research. If you have please post them.

This is what I found...


2003 50k permitsissued.....22,500 does harvested
2004 75k permitsissued.....19,500 does Harvested


In response the decline in harvested does in 2004 the state has reduced the 2005 permit issuance by 30% to 52k permits.

Which part of this data points to "Gross Mismanagment".

The entire states harvest rate droppped 12% in 2004. The drop in 2c was 14%.

Do you have idea of the statistical significance of this data?

What was the states management goals for 2c in 2004 and 2005?Did they intend for an increase or decrease in total herd numbers?

What percentage of the official harvest numbers are actual hunter reports, and what percentage are statistical estimations? What is the expected annual error rate of those estimations?

Answer some of these questions and thenyou can begin to have an educated discussion of the merits of your "gross mismanagment" belief..

PA GOBBLER

I to didn't and won't shoot does in areas that have low deer numbers. with that said some problems are and we all know a few of these people in PA that they are the 1-5 day a year hunter and dont pay much attention to whats going on w/ the deer herd. and if they could get those extra tags well yeah they did and blasted away. Also there where the hunters that really did and do still believe that we have too many deer in areas that are already at 12 or less dpsm. so yes we the hunters were the ones that blasted all the deer away. but now is a time to take a big look at the state and see that there are areas w/ very low numbers and the hunters should hold back on shooting does and also the PGC should act on not giving out so many tags in those areas.. then we come to the part w/ the smaller WMU's. and how do we pay for that and so on. its a tough battle but its got be be a team effort. the last thing this state needs are outside groups like the DCNR and Audubon to wipe out the herd completely. or a lot worse than we are now.
i do believe that there are places w/ outta control deer numbers and that's where the tags should go and the hunters should go. other big problems are w/ private land. a lot of this land is not aloud to be hunted. i think i read a study that they said that 80% of land owners dont allow hunters on the land. but those same land owners are some of the top people that complain that there are too many deer. so i would say PA has a lot of problems to be solved. IMO[/align]

bowhunter2117

The exact amount that were increased last year they cut this year

here is a recent quote from the PAGC



[blockquote]quote:

Deer population estimates have always been a point of contention. The number of deer in an area is less important than the impacts these deer have on themselves, their habitat and people. That’s why the agency’s new deer management goals focus on impacts, rather than a single number.
[/blockquote]


Sounds like they are getting the big green PR machine all ready for any mistakes made this year. They will just say the ecosystem made them do it. The effect deer have on their habitat can be argued till he77 freezes over. Bottom line they issued 25,000 extra tags that’s a lot of extra tags. And did not see the expected increase that allotment should have brung about. They could not even match the prior years harvest.
It took issuing an extra 25,000 tags to even come close to the prior years harvest

bowhunter2117

By chance jcchatrboy do you hunt Greene or Allegheny County?

ron3775

You have to look at the bigger picture. A taxidermist and I had this discussion the other day. We (Pennsylvanians) complained that we didn't have monster wall hangers running in our woods. PGC has responded and they are getting to the point that we need. In order to get the buck with the good rack you have to lower the doe population. Instead of going out in the woods to see 25 - 30 deer, your going to have to accept seeing 2 or 3. We asked for it, and now its happening.

arlow

One thing I havent seen discussed is that as the density of does is reduced so does the success rate of the hunters. Doe permit systems are based on a percentage of hunter success. This is evidenced in the numbers jcchartboy posted. 2003 was a 45 % success ratio. 2004 was a 26 percent ratio. So in theory you need more permits to kill the same amount of deer than you did the year before.
Now we canassume thesuccess rate will be 26 % or less this year. With 52,000 permits out the planned doe harvest is 13,500. The actual harvest will probably be less.

26% is a pretty good number compared to where I come from. Here in Mass we average 10 to 15 % success rate state wide for all hunters on all deer, bucks and does.

To me it looks like the herd is beginning to get where it needs to be. Nothing is perfect, especially change,and there are going to be areas thinner and thicker with deer.It will take time to balance out. 4 of 5 years is nothing in the big scale of things. Your experts know what they are doing and the rabble rousers only make the job tougher.

kevin1

You're presuming that the area in question has a low deer population based on personal observation by yourself and other hunters , the PGC's estimates are based on well researched data by folks whose very jobs depend on being accurate . Who's more likely to be correct ? .

It isn't unusual for me to go out all day and see only a few deer , even though my region averages 30-45 deer per square mile and I live in a reduction zone for does . Some of the state land here has 50-100 per square mile , yet our hunters also claim that herd numbers are down based solely on personal sightings and heresay from others . I have yet to meet a fellow hunter who has done aerial counts or game cam surveys on a statewide basis , much less crunched the massive numbers that even a decent herd estimate requires .

I won't contest that your timber and agricultural industries have big impact on the game commission , they do here too , but healthy farms and forests normally translate to a healthy and more balanced deer herd . The hardest thing that we as hunters have to do is trust our F&G departments , even when our respective goals differ . Their decisions have to take into account far more than just hunters , they have to think of what everybody else needs or wants . It's a very fine balancing act , and one of the toughest jobs I can think of .

CAMPFOURCORNERS

TO ME THE PGC DOESNT REALLY HAVE AANY IDEA ON HOW MANY DEER ARE KILLED EACH YEAR. THEY CAN NOT GO BY REPLY CARDS AND DEER PROCESSORS. THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL TRULY GET A MORE PRECISE NUMBER OF DEER KILLED EACH YEAR IS IF THEY GO TO HAVING CHECK STATIONS LIKE OTHER STATES HAVE. IF THE FOREST INDUSTRY DIDNT HAVE SUCH A HAND IN THE PGC AND THEY REALLY CARED HOW MANY DEER WERE KILLED THEY WOULD FIND A BETTER APPROACH AT DOING SO.
AND LIKE I SAID ABOVE CHECK STATIONS
[hr]

dirz1

Has the PGC divided private and public land deer management
Answer: AHHHHHH NO!!!!!

The PGC estimates there are 1.6 million deer and estimates the amount of deer harvested:
Question: For the love of God, Doesn't anyone else see the problem with the word "estimate".

The PGC has already proposed the deer seasons for 2006. THEY ARE THE SAME!!!!

I guess I am wrong.Having no idea how many deer there are and how many are being harvested, that is a great way to implement a deer management strategy. Congrats PGC on a job well done. Keep up the good work.