? about resident KS hunting permits
06-30-2004, 08:19 PM
#51
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Posts: 437
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
SB 363 – Regarding minimum age for hunter education: This bill would set a minimum age of 11 years for hunter education, and require that any person less than 12 years of age may hunt only if under the direct supervision of an adult who is 18 years or older. This bill would also create a short hunter education course; designed for non-resident hunters, which would cost each person taking the course $25, and their certificate would be good only through January 31 of the calendar year following completion of the course.
That is all there is that I can find. That is the "Statute". I can find no "hands-on" or specified course hour requirements, authority over issuance (instructor etc.) or course content. There are no regulations adopted by the KDWP or proposed and accepted by the Commission. The regulations are developed in the KDWP/Commission, and I have no info that I can find on it. Remember this has to be funded too, and that emplementation part of it will probably be problematic.
So can U take a scout merit badge time included for instance, or military and law enforcement equivilant. Or can the local shop quick give the "hands-on training or course for that matter. Needs to be addressed or the law of minimum expectations will probably run it's course.
That is all there is that I can find. That is the "Statute". I can find no "hands-on" or specified course hour requirements, authority over issuance (instructor etc.) or course content. There are no regulations adopted by the KDWP or proposed and accepted by the Commission. The regulations are developed in the KDWP/Commission, and I have no info that I can find on it. Remember this has to be funded too, and that emplementation part of it will probably be problematic.
So can U take a scout merit badge time included for instance, or military and law enforcement equivilant. Or can the local shop quick give the "hands-on training or course for that matter. Needs to be addressed or the law of minimum expectations will probably run it's course.
07-09-2004, 04:51 AM
#52
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Posts: 437
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
Landowner,
My only beef as to leasing is having to pay a fee to hunt. But I spend a lot of time in Texas and it is almost all leasing there. If you check out the thread I mentioned before it looks as if that is exactly what I am going to have to do, and for the same reason you cite, tresspassing. It is rampant and OOC in Kansas, and I had not even thought, of leasing as a primary means of eliminating tresspassing. That is what is not addressed enough if at all by any of the outdoor writers or the KDWP. Where do you have land and what would the leasing be on it? I don't think I will be hunting this year unless I get a very good peice of land to hunt, public is overrun.
So on point No. 1 I am with you. I too heard the treestands and the tresspassing bowhunters. I chose not to bring it up because I had not witnessed it firsthand nor observed it, but I heard it, and heard it quite often from landowners. You may have noticed in the debate, I kept going to data and records, and do not subscribe to idle gossip, such as Kshunter does. So, I knew of this, but did not speak about it because it was unvalidated. I do not get into debates on gossip. There was even talk in the legislature of requiring either more CO officers from KDWP or Hunter Orange for all hunters, to prevent tresspassing, about 3 years ago. After all, deer can't see it, so the only reason you would need it is to hide from or evade the landowner. I have had deer almost step on me while wearing blaze orange head to toe, and NOT during the rut (let's hear from our "real hunters" on that one about rifles and not being in close HA!)
On No. 3, I see that as well in the data I have collected. The areas that limit the hunting will see and increase of deer and everything that goes with that too, and most will be does.
8a. Yes it is your land and you do have the right. The only thing I would like to know from you and stakeholders like yourself is:
on your leased land, if the population does increase, and the damage that goes with it and accidents, etc., who would then be responsible for that damage.... the state or the landowner. See that is the only problem I can see coming down with leasing in Kansas. I think we are going to have a BIG population explosion of deer. Currently some of the agricultural interests are crazy about deer damage, and the auto accidents, so if a landowner locks off the land to a few who are agreeable to pay, and that allows an increasing population, there is a feedback loop. And deer damage must be paid by the state of Kansas by statute. So the taxpayer will incurr more expense because of more damage (that would increase concievably with increased population) to agriculture and other things, because a landowner allows the deer to propogate for the means of either a) land protection and tresspassing elimination, or b) economic benefit.
That will be a central issue in 4 years, it will take that amount of time for the KS deer population to double-double. Mark my word. We will be talking about those issues, too many deer and no way to allow harvest for the resident hunter or land access. The 4 year thing is a mathematical expression I came up with to counter KDWP's lack of ability to predict the deer population trends effectively. So I came up with my own and it is more stable and has a better statistical reliability and confidence limits are much better, has a regression factor of 2 also! The reason you ask, I have better data and predictors, than the deer/car accidents that KDWP uses currently. Mine is based on Carrying capacity, and biomass production of the area with production values subtracted out and taking into account hunting mortality rates. Pretty cool thing I developed If I do say so myself.
I have all of their "deer management plans". They have missed their goals and predictions every year. As a scientist, I would not put out such unsubstanciated rubbish and call it valuable or even accurate. I would have been embarrassed.
My only beef as to leasing is having to pay a fee to hunt. But I spend a lot of time in Texas and it is almost all leasing there. If you check out the thread I mentioned before it looks as if that is exactly what I am going to have to do, and for the same reason you cite, tresspassing. It is rampant and OOC in Kansas, and I had not even thought, of leasing as a primary means of eliminating tresspassing. That is what is not addressed enough if at all by any of the outdoor writers or the KDWP. Where do you have land and what would the leasing be on it? I don't think I will be hunting this year unless I get a very good peice of land to hunt, public is overrun.
So on point No. 1 I am with you. I too heard the treestands and the tresspassing bowhunters. I chose not to bring it up because I had not witnessed it firsthand nor observed it, but I heard it, and heard it quite often from landowners. You may have noticed in the debate, I kept going to data and records, and do not subscribe to idle gossip, such as Kshunter does. So, I knew of this, but did not speak about it because it was unvalidated. I do not get into debates on gossip. There was even talk in the legislature of requiring either more CO officers from KDWP or Hunter Orange for all hunters, to prevent tresspassing, about 3 years ago. After all, deer can't see it, so the only reason you would need it is to hide from or evade the landowner. I have had deer almost step on me while wearing blaze orange head to toe, and NOT during the rut (let's hear from our "real hunters" on that one about rifles and not being in close HA!)
On No. 3, I see that as well in the data I have collected. The areas that limit the hunting will see and increase of deer and everything that goes with that too, and most will be does.
8a. Yes it is your land and you do have the right. The only thing I would like to know from you and stakeholders like yourself is:
on your leased land, if the population does increase, and the damage that goes with it and accidents, etc., who would then be responsible for that damage.... the state or the landowner. See that is the only problem I can see coming down with leasing in Kansas. I think we are going to have a BIG population explosion of deer. Currently some of the agricultural interests are crazy about deer damage, and the auto accidents, so if a landowner locks off the land to a few who are agreeable to pay, and that allows an increasing population, there is a feedback loop. And deer damage must be paid by the state of Kansas by statute. So the taxpayer will incurr more expense because of more damage (that would increase concievably with increased population) to agriculture and other things, because a landowner allows the deer to propogate for the means of either a) land protection and tresspassing elimination, or b) economic benefit.
That will be a central issue in 4 years, it will take that amount of time for the KS deer population to double-double. Mark my word. We will be talking about those issues, too many deer and no way to allow harvest for the resident hunter or land access. The 4 year thing is a mathematical expression I came up with to counter KDWP's lack of ability to predict the deer population trends effectively. So I came up with my own and it is more stable and has a better statistical reliability and confidence limits are much better, has a regression factor of 2 also! The reason you ask, I have better data and predictors, than the deer/car accidents that KDWP uses currently. Mine is based on Carrying capacity, and biomass production of the area with production values subtracted out and taking into account hunting mortality rates. Pretty cool thing I developed If I do say so myself.
I have all of their "deer management plans". They have missed their goals and predictions every year. As a scientist, I would not put out such unsubstanciated rubbish and call it valuable or even accurate. I would have been embarrassed.
07-10-2004, 08:33 AM
#53
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elizabeth Colo. USA
Posts: 4,413
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
To say that bowhunters are the primary trespassers is HOGWASH!! Let's see, a bow hunter typically would be on stand for hours. Oh I see, you can't find him or see him because he is camoed! Where the heck is his vehicle?. It must be parked some where in the near vacinity! And to say that bowhunters are taking the time to build tree stands and then spend hours in them, it seems to me that it would not be hard to catch them on the land.
Now rifle hunters, on the other hand, could be just going down the road and see a deer on your land, stop stick the gun out the window, BAM, load and go.
If I found a tree stand on my land, that wasn't mine or belonged to any one in my family, I'd take it down. Just how often would a bow hunter have to show up to hunt, only to find his stand was gone, before he'd give up!
I go back to saying, post your land with signs that include your phone number. Give the hunters a chance to contact you to ask. But leasing, I beleive is coming. Right along with the outfitters. Mark, and guys like him, won't have a place to hunt without paying in just a few more years.
Now rifle hunters, on the other hand, could be just going down the road and see a deer on your land, stop stick the gun out the window, BAM, load and go.
If I found a tree stand on my land, that wasn't mine or belonged to any one in my family, I'd take it down. Just how often would a bow hunter have to show up to hunt, only to find his stand was gone, before he'd give up!
I go back to saying, post your land with signs that include your phone number. Give the hunters a chance to contact you to ask. But leasing, I beleive is coming. Right along with the outfitters. Mark, and guys like him, won't have a place to hunt without paying in just a few more years.
07-10-2004, 09:34 AM
#54
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Posts: 437
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
I did not bring this topic UP about bowhunter tresspassing!! I heard it through gossip and opinion, I do not repeat those. Only when validated by data do I talk about it. So you are calling landowner's claim about what he is observing on his land, HOGWASH??? How did you come to that conclusion?? You went to Landowner's property and checked it out did you?? I think he knows what is going on on his land better than you do. Or did you just get worked up, and type in a tirade of your own opinion, substanciated only by you?? At any rate ALL TRESSPASSERS should be severely admonished and prosecuted!!! Regardless of what they are carrying!!! There should be NO DEFENSE TO ANY OF THE TRESSPASSING IDIOTS!!!!!
So your comment as below shows your anti-gun stance and defense of bowhunters at all costs. The vehicle thing you point out is ridiculous. A parked bowhunter's vehicle is more visible than a rifle hunter's vehicle driven on the same road??? Do you have any idea how idiotic you are sounding???
Why don't you think these things out BEFORE inputing?
So your comment as below shows your anti-gun stance and defense of bowhunters at all costs. The vehicle thing you point out is ridiculous. A parked bowhunter's vehicle is more visible than a rifle hunter's vehicle driven on the same road??? Do you have any idea how idiotic you are sounding???
Oh I see, you can't find him or see him because he is camoed! Where the heck is his vehicle?. It must be parked some where in the near vacinity! And to say that bowhunters are taking the time to build tree stands and then spend hours in them, it seems to me that it would not be hard to catch them on the land.
Now rifle hunters, on the other hand, could be just going down the road and see a deer on your land, stop stick the gun out the window, BAM, load and go.
Now rifle hunters, on the other hand, could be just going down the road and see a deer on your land, stop stick the gun out the window, BAM, load and go.
07-10-2004, 01:13 PM
#55
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elizabeth Colo. USA
Posts: 4,413
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
I do not repeat those. Only when validated by data do I talk about it
Good grief! I'll give ya some more DATA! My family owns about 1600 acres, and we have never found a tree stand that didn't belong! BUT, the problem that we do have, is road hunters, and I can tell this much, ain't none of them using bows!!
And since bow season and rifle season aren't going on at the same time, finding a parked vehicle that doesn't belong during bow season, would lead a guy to beleive that, HEY, someone must be bowhunting! All I have to do now is, take down the tag number, and wait them out and see if I can't get a name, or call the local enforcement, and have them take care of it. Of course they are camoed up so I can't find them, but, finding thier vehicle isn't enough?
Mark, you said it yourself, that if bow hunters were forced to wear orange, that you believe trespassing would decline! Talk about dreaming! Do you think a guy that is already breaking the law by trespassing is going to wear the required orange while hunting?
At any rate ALL TRESSPASSERS should be severely admonished and prosecuted!!! Regardless of what they are carrying!!! There should be NO DEFENSE TO ANY OF THE TRESSPASSING IDIOTS!!!!!
07-10-2004, 03:21 PM
#56
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Posts: 437
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
Actually I was just responding to Landowner, and yes at the capitol I heard many members who reperesented landowners state the issue about tresspassing. And 2 years ago the legislature was and I think still is an issue, and that is the requiring of all hunters to wear hunter orange. So don't yell at me, I didn't propose it. AND NO I DO NOT CONSIDER 1 LANDOWNED DATA,you simpleton!! Go back and re-read what I posted, I never said anything like you just ripped me for. I just heard about it, informing of some of you that there are other opinions out there.
I think that is the point. Laws only keep honest people honest. Poorly enforced laws let the criminals get away with it, while the guy trying to abide by the law loses out.
Tresspassing is a VERY big problem. According to KDWP the total poaching is estimated to be more than the archery harvest number. (And yes I do have that public record too). I think that any hunter that is concerned with hunter's rights, the herd, and the management, would stop at NOTHING to end tresspassing. IF that means we all wear orange for 5 years, I say go for it. TIT Turn In Tresspassers.
Maybe if we all joined in on this, the leasing thing would go away.
Mark, you said it yourself, that if bow hunters were forced to wear orange, that you believe trespassing would decline! Talk about dreaming! Do you think a guy that is already breaking the law by trespassing is going to wear the required orange while hunting?
Tresspassing is a VERY big problem. According to KDWP the total poaching is estimated to be more than the archery harvest number. (And yes I do have that public record too). I think that any hunter that is concerned with hunter's rights, the herd, and the management, would stop at NOTHING to end tresspassing. IF that means we all wear orange for 5 years, I say go for it. TIT Turn In Tresspassers.
Maybe if we all joined in on this, the leasing thing would go away.
07-10-2004, 06:40 PM
#57
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elizabeth Colo. USA
Posts: 4,413
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
Go back and re-read what I posted, I never said anything like you just ripped me for
to KDWP the total poaching is estimated to be more than the archery harvest number
I don't no how much land "landowner" has, but catching anyone in the act of poaching/trespassing is hard to do. BUT, by leasing to an out-fitter, there are several "back lashes" that happen as was pointed out!
I don't have an answer on how to stop trespassers, even on our 1600 acres, which is all with-in a 4 by 4 square mile area, catching them in the act just doesn't happen, although my nephew did catch some kids sniping turkeys this spring, with a rifle, from the road, but was unable to catch up with them as they sped away. So, what to do!
Requiring orange for all hunters! IMO, that won't help stop trespassing! More law enforcement in the field wouldn't hurt any. I have only ever been checked ONCE in my life while hunting in KS. Although I do know that some guys are caught, but it seems very few!
Now how did we get off of the subject, or what was the subject
07-10-2004, 06:45 PM
#58
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 5
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
Mark
People lease for different reasons. Mine was an abundant supply of energetic trespassers. Catching a bird hunter isn't bad nor a rifle hunter. The bird hunter is out walking in the open with the vehicle out in the open,most times anyway. Alot of the rifle hunters do it from their vehicle. From a vehicle most times it's out in the open. Pretty obvious who's doing what during rifle season. I've caught em several times over the years. Archery is different. More foliage. I don't have time to walk it every day that time of year. It's pretty easy to enter from someone elses land that they might have permission to hunt on. I'm about a mile from a bridge. It's not that far of a walk. If I do drive in, they would have to be deaf and blind not to hear me coming. Bottom line, archery season was my worst for it. Signs were posted. Can't read I guess. I got tired of it and corrected it. Problem solved.
As far as deer populations, I believe you are correct that deer populations will explode in and around leased ground. Like I said earlier, I am already seeing it. As of now the state is stuck with it since they own the deer. Whether it is leased or closed, the population will soar. I never have and never will go the crop damage route. How about if you or I or whoever lease their ground for deer hunting, they are inelgible for any crop damage??? As far as controlling the population, does will have to be harvested. Some thoughts floating around were letting the youngster come in during the youth season and hunt. Open it to those who meat hunt. Their are several options to look at. I guess what I am saying is there is an ongoing management plan from the outfitter. He is looking at it as a long term deal,not a bang bang shoot em up adios amigo type adventure. I respect him for that.
Keep with that data. Someday I'm gonna get a hold of you and we is gonna have us a visit.
People lease for different reasons. Mine was an abundant supply of energetic trespassers. Catching a bird hunter isn't bad nor a rifle hunter. The bird hunter is out walking in the open with the vehicle out in the open,most times anyway. Alot of the rifle hunters do it from their vehicle. From a vehicle most times it's out in the open. Pretty obvious who's doing what during rifle season. I've caught em several times over the years. Archery is different. More foliage. I don't have time to walk it every day that time of year. It's pretty easy to enter from someone elses land that they might have permission to hunt on. I'm about a mile from a bridge. It's not that far of a walk. If I do drive in, they would have to be deaf and blind not to hear me coming. Bottom line, archery season was my worst for it. Signs were posted. Can't read I guess. I got tired of it and corrected it. Problem solved.
As far as deer populations, I believe you are correct that deer populations will explode in and around leased ground. Like I said earlier, I am already seeing it. As of now the state is stuck with it since they own the deer. Whether it is leased or closed, the population will soar. I never have and never will go the crop damage route. How about if you or I or whoever lease their ground for deer hunting, they are inelgible for any crop damage??? As far as controlling the population, does will have to be harvested. Some thoughts floating around were letting the youngster come in during the youth season and hunt. Open it to those who meat hunt. Their are several options to look at. I guess what I am saying is there is an ongoing management plan from the outfitter. He is looking at it as a long term deal,not a bang bang shoot em up adios amigo type adventure. I respect him for that.
Keep with that data. Someday I'm gonna get a hold of you and we is gonna have us a visit.
07-13-2004, 02:17 PM
#59
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rural Kansas... Where Life is Good
Posts: 4,139
RE: ? about resident KS hunting permits
Thanks for the information guys, very interesting concept that you have Landowner. On another note.
And again:
haha What funny/misleading statements.
I guess my earlier post was missed. I labeled it TTT on the 4th to last post on the 2nd page.
You may have noticed in the debate, I kept going to data and records, and do not subscribe to idle gossip, such as Kshunter does. So, I knew of this, but did not speak about it because it was unvalidated. I do not get into debates on gossip.
I kept going to data and records
I guess my earlier post was missed. I labeled it TTT on the 4th to last post on the 2nd page.
