Bullet Failures
12-21-2004, 09:18 AM
#11
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 571
RE: Bullet Failures
Well stated BC, agreed. I use personal experience only, can't trust another's unless I see it myself. I am not sponsered and therefore not biased. Who is to say the guy or mag. sponsered by Barnes isn't trashing Nosler, or the the mag. sponsored by Remington isn't trashing Hornady bullets? Ford says that Dodge's are crap, Chevy says they both are crap. . .How do we know that all of them aren't junk? Collectively we all drive them ourselves and have personal experience with the product; therefore a preferance for one or another.
12-21-2004, 10:20 AM
#12
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 194
RE: Bullet Failures
I’m just sharing my personal experience as well and have nothing personal to gain by it. Unfortunately I don’t have enough experience to justify and defend my perspective and discount the experience of others. Still wet behind the ears and willing to listen.
As far as bullet failure goes, failure is a relative term. If the animal dies after one shot, then the bullet did the job even it had to do it in two or more pieces. I don’t know why people are having a hard time with the concept of broken bullets.
Just think of it for a second, most man made object that travel at 3000 fps will be damaged and come apart on impact, except for maybe an armor piercing bullet through a whitetail which is another discussion entirely. Why is it such a difficult concept to imagine that a projectile made from some of the softest metals we know, like lead and copper will come apart on impact? Unlike armor piercing bullets these things are designed to deform on impact which is asking the bullet to sort a fail but not really… These bullets are designed so close to the failure line that there is no factor of safety. I am not surprised that bullets come apart in animals or don’t mushroom as advertised, there are far too many variable like ribs and the angle you hit ribs, not mention shoulder blades etc..
I am not trashing or defending manufacturers, just sorting my way trough bullets to help myself eliminate as many unknown factors to find a bullet that will stay together more often than not to guarantee a clean humane kill. And that’s why I bought Sierra Game Kings in the first place, based on the advice of the experienced.
As far as bullet failure goes, failure is a relative term. If the animal dies after one shot, then the bullet did the job even it had to do it in two or more pieces. I don’t know why people are having a hard time with the concept of broken bullets.
Just think of it for a second, most man made object that travel at 3000 fps will be damaged and come apart on impact, except for maybe an armor piercing bullet through a whitetail which is another discussion entirely. Why is it such a difficult concept to imagine that a projectile made from some of the softest metals we know, like lead and copper will come apart on impact? Unlike armor piercing bullets these things are designed to deform on impact which is asking the bullet to sort a fail but not really… These bullets are designed so close to the failure line that there is no factor of safety. I am not surprised that bullets come apart in animals or don’t mushroom as advertised, there are far too many variable like ribs and the angle you hit ribs, not mention shoulder blades etc..
I am not trashing or defending manufacturers, just sorting my way trough bullets to help myself eliminate as many unknown factors to find a bullet that will stay together more often than not to guarantee a clean humane kill. And that’s why I bought Sierra Game Kings in the first place, based on the advice of the experienced.
12-21-2004, 11:42 AM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Bullet Failures
WH, I am not saying that your incident didin't happen by no means. Especially when you come on here explaining your wet behind the ears. I am sure some of these things do happen. But we all can agree that some stories are retold over and over. And told as people own stories. The bullistic tip comes to mind.
I would say some stories are modified to make more believeable. Like when a person sees a small exit hole, they would say it didn't expand at all and I found the bullet and it was in the shape it was when I fired it.
I would say some stories are modified to make more believeable. Like when a person sees a small exit hole, they would say it didn't expand at all and I found the bullet and it was in the shape it was when I fired it.
12-21-2004, 12:57 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gypsum KS USA
Posts: 1,289
RE: Bullet Failures
What we should really call "bullet failure" is the failure of a bullet to perform as designed. Varmint bullets are desgned to "fail" structurally, so that they fragment and expand violently, but that isn't really bullet failure, since they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do.
I have experienced bullet failure first hand, in the field and on the range. I hit a deer at about 30yrds with a Winchester Ballistic Silvertip, she fell on impact, I got up from my blind and started walking out, at about 10yrds away, she got up, I noticed a huge flesh wound on the impact side and she took off running, limping a bit, but dead on sprinting. A buddy on an adjacent patch shot her when she ran across him. He lead her to far and hit her in the neck, so my wound was un-disturbed...we found fragments of the bullet all over in the entry wound, it was about 2" deep and the size of a CD at the skin. The ribs were broken in place (not shattered), but her vitals were intact.
After that, I did some experimenting with ballistics gelatin (poured it into a 5gal bucket and let "set", then dumped the block out of the bucket), I put coyote hides around the block to mimic live animal skin tension...at ranges where my bullet was still over 2750fps, I wasn't getting exit wounds, I'd get shallow topical wounds and my bullets would SHATTER...at ranges below that velocity, I'd get good exit wounds and the bullets were much more regularly and slowly expanded (captured in sand berms). At around 300-400yrds, I was getting expansion typical of a soft point bullet at 2500fps, and the lead core stopped separating from the bullets, which is why these bullets are considered to be better for long range hunting, they give the same performance at double the range as typical hunting bullets...but you also sacrifice the short range performance.
Kinda like diving into a pool off a 10ft board is fine, but off a 100ft board can kill you, your body (the bullet) fails structurally at that speed.
One reason I think you're more apt to hear this kind of thing on the internet is the level of activity...I can't speak for you guys, but I'm the only one of my buddies that frequents hunting message boards, the only one that cares that much about it to read up and talk about it. Guys on here typically shoot more in a month than most hunters do in a year. We might not be experts, and some of our experiences might not be typical, but the level of our experience is a lot higher than that of average hunters.
For example, a buddy of mine told me he had been out shooting with his new brother in law, who had this really "old, used henry .44mag" he had just bought...I asked him if he was sure it was old, he said it looked like new, but it was a really old looking gun design, and the B.I.L. had said it was a real Henry, and it WAS a .44mag. I asked him if the guy ever called it a "big boy", and he said he had called it just that when he first got it out of the case...I just smiled and said, yeah, those are pretty nice rifles. The Henry Big Boy .44mag was introduced not more than 3yrs ago, prior to that, there was NEVER a "Henry" made in .44mag.
My buddy thought he was shooting a piece of history, and he was really just shooting a nearly newborn bastard child of an old design. But he didn't know any better. It took me all of 30seconds to realize he didn't know what he was talking about.
I've also got buddies that SWEAR you can't kill anything past a mile because your bullet "sands" itself down on the air so much that your bullet is almost gone at that range...Some will also tell you that they'd consider a .243win unethical because it's under-powered, but in the next breath they'll recommend you try a .357mag handgun for deer, they've never looked at the numbers and realized that the .243 has about double the energy of the .357mag.
How many of your typical hunting buddies know what a Kalishnakov is? Or a Simonov? A CETME? FN-FAL? MAK-90? How many of them have fired over 10guns in their life? Over 100?
Like I said, it's no real discredit to them as hunters, but as shooters and advisors on hunting and shooting, you've got to take experience and knowledge into account.
Simply being on this board typical says you either know more or WANT to know more than the average "Joe Igottarifle".
Kinda like how most people don't know the value of good felt on a pool table, or understand the significance of body roll in race cars, if you're not avid about it, there are secrets to any hobby or sport that you're not going to know. I think they're called the "tricks of the trade".
I have experienced bullet failure first hand, in the field and on the range. I hit a deer at about 30yrds with a Winchester Ballistic Silvertip, she fell on impact, I got up from my blind and started walking out, at about 10yrds away, she got up, I noticed a huge flesh wound on the impact side and she took off running, limping a bit, but dead on sprinting. A buddy on an adjacent patch shot her when she ran across him. He lead her to far and hit her in the neck, so my wound was un-disturbed...we found fragments of the bullet all over in the entry wound, it was about 2" deep and the size of a CD at the skin. The ribs were broken in place (not shattered), but her vitals were intact.
After that, I did some experimenting with ballistics gelatin (poured it into a 5gal bucket and let "set", then dumped the block out of the bucket), I put coyote hides around the block to mimic live animal skin tension...at ranges where my bullet was still over 2750fps, I wasn't getting exit wounds, I'd get shallow topical wounds and my bullets would SHATTER...at ranges below that velocity, I'd get good exit wounds and the bullets were much more regularly and slowly expanded (captured in sand berms). At around 300-400yrds, I was getting expansion typical of a soft point bullet at 2500fps, and the lead core stopped separating from the bullets, which is why these bullets are considered to be better for long range hunting, they give the same performance at double the range as typical hunting bullets...but you also sacrifice the short range performance.
Kinda like diving into a pool off a 10ft board is fine, but off a 100ft board can kill you, your body (the bullet) fails structurally at that speed.
One reason I think you're more apt to hear this kind of thing on the internet is the level of activity...I can't speak for you guys, but I'm the only one of my buddies that frequents hunting message boards, the only one that cares that much about it to read up and talk about it. Guys on here typically shoot more in a month than most hunters do in a year. We might not be experts, and some of our experiences might not be typical, but the level of our experience is a lot higher than that of average hunters.
For example, a buddy of mine told me he had been out shooting with his new brother in law, who had this really "old, used henry .44mag" he had just bought...I asked him if he was sure it was old, he said it looked like new, but it was a really old looking gun design, and the B.I.L. had said it was a real Henry, and it WAS a .44mag. I asked him if the guy ever called it a "big boy", and he said he had called it just that when he first got it out of the case...I just smiled and said, yeah, those are pretty nice rifles. The Henry Big Boy .44mag was introduced not more than 3yrs ago, prior to that, there was NEVER a "Henry" made in .44mag.
My buddy thought he was shooting a piece of history, and he was really just shooting a nearly newborn bastard child of an old design. But he didn't know any better. It took me all of 30seconds to realize he didn't know what he was talking about.
I've also got buddies that SWEAR you can't kill anything past a mile because your bullet "sands" itself down on the air so much that your bullet is almost gone at that range...Some will also tell you that they'd consider a .243win unethical because it's under-powered, but in the next breath they'll recommend you try a .357mag handgun for deer, they've never looked at the numbers and realized that the .243 has about double the energy of the .357mag.
How many of your typical hunting buddies know what a Kalishnakov is? Or a Simonov? A CETME? FN-FAL? MAK-90? How many of them have fired over 10guns in their life? Over 100?
Like I said, it's no real discredit to them as hunters, but as shooters and advisors on hunting and shooting, you've got to take experience and knowledge into account.
Simply being on this board typical says you either know more or WANT to know more than the average "Joe Igottarifle".
Kinda like how most people don't know the value of good felt on a pool table, or understand the significance of body roll in race cars, if you're not avid about it, there are secrets to any hobby or sport that you're not going to know. I think they're called the "tricks of the trade".
12-21-2004, 02:32 PM
#15
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Bullet Failures
I think the underlying things with many so called "Bullet Failure" are not understanding the design and not accepting the error factor.
All to often when the words are uttered about my "bullet failed" I have heard it followed up by comments that point to a lack of understanding with how a bullet is design. This then translates directly into not picking the right tool for the job. I mean would you pick a hammer to drive a screw??? A basic lack of knowledge or willingness to read deeper than the ballistics table or line in a magazine only constitutes failure of a different kind IMO.
Almost as equal is the cop out of a "Bullet Failure" when it was actually shooter error. I have personally had 2 results that some may consider a failure and they are right cuz I know it was the guy behind the trigger who failed not the bullet!
With every bullet design there pay offs and trade offs. It seems in todays world few want to discuss the payoffs and instead dwell on the trade offs, which builds and create mountains out of ant hills. In the end almost any bullet is deemed/doomed to be a "Failure" with this type of mentality.
All to often when the words are uttered about my "bullet failed" I have heard it followed up by comments that point to a lack of understanding with how a bullet is design. This then translates directly into not picking the right tool for the job. I mean would you pick a hammer to drive a screw??? A basic lack of knowledge or willingness to read deeper than the ballistics table or line in a magazine only constitutes failure of a different kind IMO.
Almost as equal is the cop out of a "Bullet Failure" when it was actually shooter error. I have personally had 2 results that some may consider a failure and they are right cuz I know it was the guy behind the trigger who failed not the bullet!
With every bullet design there pay offs and trade offs. It seems in todays world few want to discuss the payoffs and instead dwell on the trade offs, which builds and create mountains out of ant hills. In the end almost any bullet is deemed/doomed to be a "Failure" with this type of mentality.
12-21-2004, 03:35 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Bullet Failures
Simply being on this board typical says you either know more or WANT to know more than the average "Joe Igottarifle".
But I think you experiment with the gel is a tad unrealistic. Don't mean to critisise as I have done very little penetration experiments except with newspapers. But the lungs of an animal is hollow. Filled with air. Not much fluid in them. Its like 1000 little balloons in a big one. The gel has too much density. I can see how it explode as you say. Now a gut shot usually stops a bullet in its tracks.
12-21-2004, 03:41 PM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 139
RE: Bullet Failures
I think the problem, if one wants to call it a problem, is that bullet designs have become so specialized (which is good) that some people just don't know what to use in particular circumstances. This isn't so much the bullet's fault, or the manufacturer's as it is the shooter's own failures.
For example, some people trash ballistic tips saying how often they fragment. However, usually when one is pressed you either find out the ballistic tip hit the animal at 100 yards or less or came out of a big ol' magnum or other "quick" caliber. I don't think the problem is with the bullet or the quick calibers...... just the fact that ballistic tips were built for a specialized purpose (long range). A 300 magnum ballistic tip at 250 yards is very potent medicine indeed. The same set up at 75 yards isn't so hot!
I just think we need to match the bullets to our situations a bit better. If I'm out west were 200 yard shots are very likely I would use a flat, fast rifle with the BTs. Out east where 100 yard shots are more likely I'd go with a standard caliber in regular old core-lokts or powerpoints.
If you're a one gun guy or gal with only a fast magnum then I'd go BTs out west and interbonds in the east. I just think many of these failures are own own making!
Earlier in this thread I told you all about my pal who shot a nice buck with a 25-06 that fragmented. We were literally hunting beanfields, so a 115 grain BT was a sound choice. When we were headed back and a decent buck crossed at about 50 yards he took the shot. The deer died, but the bullet fragmented. I don't think this was "bullet failure" just the circumstances he was faced with.
I love BTs, I love core-lokts, and I love gamekings. I suppose under normal circumstances they all work very, very well! However, when we start shooting deer at 40 yards with super magnums..... bullets will start to blow up!
For example, some people trash ballistic tips saying how often they fragment. However, usually when one is pressed you either find out the ballistic tip hit the animal at 100 yards or less or came out of a big ol' magnum or other "quick" caliber. I don't think the problem is with the bullet or the quick calibers...... just the fact that ballistic tips were built for a specialized purpose (long range). A 300 magnum ballistic tip at 250 yards is very potent medicine indeed. The same set up at 75 yards isn't so hot!
I just think we need to match the bullets to our situations a bit better. If I'm out west were 200 yard shots are very likely I would use a flat, fast rifle with the BTs. Out east where 100 yard shots are more likely I'd go with a standard caliber in regular old core-lokts or powerpoints.
If you're a one gun guy or gal with only a fast magnum then I'd go BTs out west and interbonds in the east. I just think many of these failures are own own making!
Earlier in this thread I told you all about my pal who shot a nice buck with a 25-06 that fragmented. We were literally hunting beanfields, so a 115 grain BT was a sound choice. When we were headed back and a decent buck crossed at about 50 yards he took the shot. The deer died, but the bullet fragmented. I don't think this was "bullet failure" just the circumstances he was faced with.
I love BTs, I love core-lokts, and I love gamekings. I suppose under normal circumstances they all work very, very well! However, when we start shooting deer at 40 yards with super magnums..... bullets will start to blow up!
12-21-2004, 03:59 PM
#18
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 10
RE: Bullet Failures
Fairly new to the forum, and let me just say I'm all ready hooked, you guys are great. Lotta info... its nice to see different sides to a story, and to hear about millions of collective shooting hours and compare them to my own experiences.
Anyway based what I know and the guys I talk to, I think that bullet failures can be divided into three groups.
#1. Excuses (95%). Just because the animal didn't fall down doesn't mean the bullet didnt work. If you didn't recover the animal, how can you have any idea what the bullet did? In and out of the guts, no bullet mushrooms enough to hit the heart. I once spent 3 hours tracking a doe listening to my buddy going on about "core-lokts are junk. screw this" until lo and behold we found his deer and whaddaya know gutshot.
#2. Foolishness (4%). Go buy some UMC full metal jacket ammo for your .308, and I guarantee that you will end up crippling an animal eventually. Same thing goes for shooting elk with 40 gr varmint bullets at 10 kajillion FPS.
#3 Honest-to-goodness failures (1%). I suppose this may happen more than one percent of the time, but hits hard to know for sure. The only way to tell is with a story like Nomercy's. Like you guys said in previous posts, bullet design walks a fine line between no expansion and comlpete lead splatter. sometimes a few fps either way is going to "break the camels back". If shot at 75 yards instead of 30, my guess would be that that Nomercy's doe would have gone down for good. But you cant exactly decide where that deers going to be and going to go.
I suppose that all 3 types can be avoided. Its just a matter of research research research, trial trial trial. Which I guess is why we're all members of this board.
BTW where do you get ballistics gelatin? now that sounds like a good time!
PABigBore
Anyway based what I know and the guys I talk to, I think that bullet failures can be divided into three groups.
#1. Excuses (95%). Just because the animal didn't fall down doesn't mean the bullet didnt work. If you didn't recover the animal, how can you have any idea what the bullet did? In and out of the guts, no bullet mushrooms enough to hit the heart. I once spent 3 hours tracking a doe listening to my buddy going on about "core-lokts are junk. screw this" until lo and behold we found his deer and whaddaya know gutshot.
#2. Foolishness (4%). Go buy some UMC full metal jacket ammo for your .308, and I guarantee that you will end up crippling an animal eventually. Same thing goes for shooting elk with 40 gr varmint bullets at 10 kajillion FPS.
#3 Honest-to-goodness failures (1%). I suppose this may happen more than one percent of the time, but hits hard to know for sure. The only way to tell is with a story like Nomercy's. Like you guys said in previous posts, bullet design walks a fine line between no expansion and comlpete lead splatter. sometimes a few fps either way is going to "break the camels back". If shot at 75 yards instead of 30, my guess would be that that Nomercy's doe would have gone down for good. But you cant exactly decide where that deers going to be and going to go.
I suppose that all 3 types can be avoided. Its just a matter of research research research, trial trial trial. Which I guess is why we're all members of this board.
BTW where do you get ballistics gelatin? now that sounds like a good time!
PABigBore
12-21-2004, 04:01 PM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Bullet Failures
However, when we start shooting deer at 40 yards with super magnums..... bullets will start to blow up!
12-21-2004, 04:36 PM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 139
RE: Bullet Failures
Bigcountry,
I think you just answred your own question..... because you always wait to take a good shot is probably the reason you don't see this. I've only seen it twice, myself. However, earlier in the thread you were asking why this wasn't talked about 10, 15, 20 years ago. I, personally, think it was less of a problem because #1 we weren't pushing the envelope so much (today more people are shooting the big mags & loading their own stuff with some pretty hot loads). Remember when most people in deer camp had a 270, 30-06, or 30-30 (maybe a 7mm rem mag here and there)?? Today, we see more and more of the ultra mags.... often handloads. #2 also back then most people used core-lokts or some "vanilla" ammo. Again, I think there is a place for ultra mags and specialized ammo, but too often today that combo is used where it shouldn't be.
Although most of us have probably only seen fragmentation or jacket seperation a couple of times...... multiply that two times by a million hunters..... then give them a forum to talk about it...... it's no wonder it seems like there is more talk about it today.
However, if you've not had a problem with it, keep doing what you are doing. Not kissing your butt, but you're probably a more knowledgable and patient hunter than many people out there. A BT at 20 yards that's a perfect shot won't do anything. Hit a shoulder or rib though & it's plausible they can blow up! IMHO, though I think bullet speed and wrong bullet selection is the cause of the phenomenon.
I think you just answred your own question..... because you always wait to take a good shot is probably the reason you don't see this. I've only seen it twice, myself. However, earlier in the thread you were asking why this wasn't talked about 10, 15, 20 years ago. I, personally, think it was less of a problem because #1 we weren't pushing the envelope so much (today more people are shooting the big mags & loading their own stuff with some pretty hot loads). Remember when most people in deer camp had a 270, 30-06, or 30-30 (maybe a 7mm rem mag here and there)?? Today, we see more and more of the ultra mags.... often handloads. #2 also back then most people used core-lokts or some "vanilla" ammo. Again, I think there is a place for ultra mags and specialized ammo, but too often today that combo is used where it shouldn't be.
Although most of us have probably only seen fragmentation or jacket seperation a couple of times...... multiply that two times by a million hunters..... then give them a forum to talk about it...... it's no wonder it seems like there is more talk about it today.
However, if you've not had a problem with it, keep doing what you are doing. Not kissing your butt, but you're probably a more knowledgable and patient hunter than many people out there. A BT at 20 yards that's a perfect shot won't do anything. Hit a shoulder or rib though & it's plausible they can blow up! IMHO, though I think bullet speed and wrong bullet selection is the cause of the phenomenon.