Please help; brother in law built a semi-auto rifle and is selling it privately...
08-07-2016, 11:00 AM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
Please help; brother in law built a semi-auto rifle and is selling it privately...
I am a lifelong hunter, but this is something I know nothing about and am not about to mess around with.
My brother in law built a semi-auto rifle for a guy and is selling it to him. Normally I do not give a damn about stuff like this, but here is the kicker. He works out of state and is asking my wife to meet the guy and sell the gun to him. As far as I can tell it is an AM-15 rifle.
I did a quick Google search and from what I gather it is completely legal to manufacture your own weapons for private use, but it is illegal to manufacture guns in the state of Minnesota with the intent to sell privately. I guess it is not completely clear where that line is drawn though because you can sell a privately made weapon as long as it is not obvious that it was manufactured with the intent to sell from the beginning. This gun was made less than a month ago and it is very obvious it was made for the purpose of selling to this guy.
If my wife follows through with this (I have absolutely forbid her from doing so until I am certain she will not be breaking the law) will she be committing a felony? or breaking any law for that matter? it certainly seems to me that she is...
My brother in law built a semi-auto rifle for a guy and is selling it to him. Normally I do not give a damn about stuff like this, but here is the kicker. He works out of state and is asking my wife to meet the guy and sell the gun to him. As far as I can tell it is an AM-15 rifle.
I did a quick Google search and from what I gather it is completely legal to manufacture your own weapons for private use, but it is illegal to manufacture guns in the state of Minnesota with the intent to sell privately. I guess it is not completely clear where that line is drawn though because you can sell a privately made weapon as long as it is not obvious that it was manufactured with the intent to sell from the beginning. This gun was made less than a month ago and it is very obvious it was made for the purpose of selling to this guy.
If my wife follows through with this (I have absolutely forbid her from doing so until I am certain she will not be breaking the law) will she be committing a felony? or breaking any law for that matter? it certainly seems to me that she is...
08-07-2016, 11:44 AM
#2
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,536
You are wise to have your wife hold off until you can get further information. The fact that you don't feel comfortable with it is a huge red flag. The same with your brother-in-law wanting your wife to handle the transaction instead of himself. Just based on that information, most gunowners would say no.
If you really want to find our for sure though, you should talk with an attorney since you likely won't be comfortable talking with ATF or your state's DOJ (both of them would know the answer also). If you have any friends at your county's District Attorney's Office, they should know the answer also.
You could try sending a PM to cr422 also. He's an attorney in Michigan but might be familiar with Minnesota laws. He's a really smart guy and knows his stuff.
If you really want to find our for sure though, you should talk with an attorney since you likely won't be comfortable talking with ATF or your state's DOJ (both of them would know the answer also). If you have any friends at your county's District Attorney's Office, they should know the answer also.
You could try sending a PM to cr422 also. He's an attorney in Michigan but might be familiar with Minnesota laws. He's a really smart guy and knows his stuff.
08-07-2016, 12:16 PM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 16,147
If I understand you correctly, this guy is has built a gun in one state and is selling it to someone in the state you live in and wants to use your wife as a go between. That could be considered a straw man sale where I live. In my state and man others purchases from out of state must go through an ffl in the state of purchase. Your brother-in-law could be placing your wife in a very bad situation and I would not allow her to have any part of it. Go talk to a gun shop owner and without giving out any names or relationships ask the proprietor if that would be legal. I suspect it would not be.
08-07-2016, 12:29 PM
#4
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
People buy parts and have somebody with the good tools assemble them..............that is not manufacturing (by the laws I've read).
Charging folks to assemble them............means you are in business, and that opens up other legal stuff.
Best to have be licensed for that stuff (legal business with FFL).
Charging folks to assemble them............means you are in business, and that opens up other legal stuff.
Best to have be licensed for that stuff (legal business with FFL).
He bought the parts, assembled it in MN and now is gone for work so my wife was asked to meet the guy for him. She didn't think anything of it and I freaked the hell out because it sounded illegal as all hell to me.
08-07-2016, 12:30 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,915
As has been mentioned, if he purchased a serialized lower and ASSEMBLED the rifle, then he did NOT manufacture the firearm, so the "manufacture for private use" law you reference does not apply.
HOWEVER, if he ASSEMBLED the rifle with no intent of personal ownership, and built it for profit, he DOES have to have a business license and FFL to be able to do so legally. Even doing ONE rifle for profit. Lots of guys slip stuff under the radar for personal businesses which SHOULD be on the radar, in the trade, they call that tax evasion. I wouldn't mess with federal laws just to help transfer an AR-15 to let your brother make a few bucks, and he shouldn't be messing with it without the right legal steps taken. I got in trouble with the BATFE about 18yrs ago because I was ASSEMBLING AR's for profit, under a business license, but didn't have an FFL - technically, doing so made me a firearms dealer and gunsmith... Luckily they let me suspend operations, pay a fine, and apply for my FFL to continue operating. Even after 1 firearm, as it's a business dealing in firearms for profit. Even if the owner purchases and provides the serialized lower, you still have to have an FFL, because to operate the ASSEMBLY business, whether for profit or not, you're performing business as a gunsmith - which has it's own FFL type. Unless your brother has an FFL and a business license, what you described is a state AND federal offense - he has to have a business license to operate as a firearms dealer and gunsmith for profit (his labor charges) on the state/local side, and has to have an FFL as a firearms dealer and/or gunsmith to be able to perform the assembly business for profit on the federal side.
Out of state private transfers are tricky, and largely vary state by state. Some states only allow their citizens to purchase firearms in their home state, or contiguous (bordering) states. Some states require FOID or other pre-purchase requirements for owning firearms, or at least certain firearms. I saw Minnesota mentioned above, I do know to purchase an AR-15 in minnesota, you do have to apply for a permit of some sort, and have certain restrictions on firearms (number and/or type)... So that might not be an issue for YOU, but it could be if you facilitate the transfer of a firearm to an illegal recipient.
HOWEVER, if he ASSEMBLED the rifle with no intent of personal ownership, and built it for profit, he DOES have to have a business license and FFL to be able to do so legally. Even doing ONE rifle for profit. Lots of guys slip stuff under the radar for personal businesses which SHOULD be on the radar, in the trade, they call that tax evasion. I wouldn't mess with federal laws just to help transfer an AR-15 to let your brother make a few bucks, and he shouldn't be messing with it without the right legal steps taken. I got in trouble with the BATFE about 18yrs ago because I was ASSEMBLING AR's for profit, under a business license, but didn't have an FFL - technically, doing so made me a firearms dealer and gunsmith... Luckily they let me suspend operations, pay a fine, and apply for my FFL to continue operating. Even after 1 firearm, as it's a business dealing in firearms for profit. Even if the owner purchases and provides the serialized lower, you still have to have an FFL, because to operate the ASSEMBLY business, whether for profit or not, you're performing business as a gunsmith - which has it's own FFL type. Unless your brother has an FFL and a business license, what you described is a state AND federal offense - he has to have a business license to operate as a firearms dealer and gunsmith for profit (his labor charges) on the state/local side, and has to have an FFL as a firearms dealer and/or gunsmith to be able to perform the assembly business for profit on the federal side.
Out of state private transfers are tricky, and largely vary state by state. Some states only allow their citizens to purchase firearms in their home state, or contiguous (bordering) states. Some states require FOID or other pre-purchase requirements for owning firearms, or at least certain firearms. I saw Minnesota mentioned above, I do know to purchase an AR-15 in minnesota, you do have to apply for a permit of some sort, and have certain restrictions on firearms (number and/or type)... So that might not be an issue for YOU, but it could be if you facilitate the transfer of a firearm to an illegal recipient.
Last edited by Nomercy448; 08-07-2016 at 12:35 PM.
08-07-2016, 01:28 PM
#6
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4
As has been mentioned, if he purchased a serialized lower and ASSEMBLED the rifle, then he did NOT manufacture the firearm, so the "manufacture for private use" law you reference does not apply.
HOWEVER, if he ASSEMBLED the rifle with no intent of personal ownership, and built it for profit, he DOES have to have a business license and FFL to be able to do so legally. Even doing ONE rifle for profit. Lots of guys slip stuff under the radar for personal businesses which SHOULD be on the radar, in the trade, they call that tax evasion. I wouldn't mess with federal laws just to help transfer an AR-15 to let your brother make a few bucks, and he shouldn't be messing with it without the right legal steps taken. I got in trouble with the BATFE about 18yrs ago because I was ASSEMBLING AR's for profit, under a business license, but didn't have an FFL - technically, doing so made me a firearms dealer and gunsmith... Luckily they let me suspend operations, pay a fine, and apply for my FFL to continue operating. Even after 1 firearm, as it's a business dealing in firearms for profit. Even if the owner purchases and provides the serialized lower, you still have to have an FFL, because to operate the ASSEMBLY business, whether for profit or not, you're performing business as a gunsmith - which has it's own FFL type. Unless your brother has an FFL and a business license, what you described is a state AND federal offense - he has to have a business license to operate as a firearms dealer and gunsmith for profit (his labor charges) on the state/local side, and has to have an FFL as a firearms dealer and/or gunsmith to be able to perform the assembly business for profit on the federal side.
Out of state private transfers are tricky, and largely vary state by state. Some states only allow their citizens to purchase firearms in their home state, or contiguous (bordering) states. Some states require FOID or other pre-purchase requirements for owning firearms, or at least certain firearms. I saw Minnesota mentioned above, I do know to purchase an AR-15 in minnesota, you do have to apply for a permit of some sort, and have certain restrictions on firearms (number and/or type)... So that might not be an issue for YOU, but it could be if you facilitate the transfer of a firearm to an illegal recipient.
HOWEVER, if he ASSEMBLED the rifle with no intent of personal ownership, and built it for profit, he DOES have to have a business license and FFL to be able to do so legally. Even doing ONE rifle for profit. Lots of guys slip stuff under the radar for personal businesses which SHOULD be on the radar, in the trade, they call that tax evasion. I wouldn't mess with federal laws just to help transfer an AR-15 to let your brother make a few bucks, and he shouldn't be messing with it without the right legal steps taken. I got in trouble with the BATFE about 18yrs ago because I was ASSEMBLING AR's for profit, under a business license, but didn't have an FFL - technically, doing so made me a firearms dealer and gunsmith... Luckily they let me suspend operations, pay a fine, and apply for my FFL to continue operating. Even after 1 firearm, as it's a business dealing in firearms for profit. Even if the owner purchases and provides the serialized lower, you still have to have an FFL, because to operate the ASSEMBLY business, whether for profit or not, you're performing business as a gunsmith - which has it's own FFL type. Unless your brother has an FFL and a business license, what you described is a state AND federal offense - he has to have a business license to operate as a firearms dealer and gunsmith for profit (his labor charges) on the state/local side, and has to have an FFL as a firearms dealer and/or gunsmith to be able to perform the assembly business for profit on the federal side.
Out of state private transfers are tricky, and largely vary state by state. Some states only allow their citizens to purchase firearms in their home state, or contiguous (bordering) states. Some states require FOID or other pre-purchase requirements for owning firearms, or at least certain firearms. I saw Minnesota mentioned above, I do know to purchase an AR-15 in minnesota, you do have to apply for a permit of some sort, and have certain restrictions on firearms (number and/or type)... So that might not be an issue for YOU, but it could be if you facilitate the transfer of a firearm to an illegal recipient.
My wife knows absolutely nothing about guns and she already transported it in her car without it being in a case which is not a good thing to do either. I'm not gonna have her getting in trouble for being a party to him selling weapons. Not worth it.
08-07-2016, 01:43 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Allegan, MI
Posts: 8,019
I have to chuckle every time I see a person come on the internet and ask a question regarding their health issues or legal questions. That's why doctors and lawyers are out there to consult and really not us guys that stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night! I wouldn't take any chances doing what was asked of you and your wife was lucky she didn't get stopped with an uncased rifle or your BIL might not even have it to try and sell it!
08-10-2016, 10:27 AM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 6,357
The answer is simple. Keep your wife out of it. Let the BIL take it to "the guy," or have "the guy" go get it from your BIL. Then it is their problem if they have mistaken the law and not your wife's problem. These things get very tricky. Here is an angle to consider: even if the transaction suggested IS legal . . . would it be a satisfactory outcome if a criminal gun charge were brought against your wife (or the BIL for that matter) and the charge was, ultimately, overcome in court? That could take a lot of time, cost a lot of money, create other complications (being on a federal no-fly list) that can be difficult ultimately to clear up. It just isn't worth the hassle. An abundance of caution is advisable.
08-12-2016, 07:50 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Germany/Calif.
Posts: 2,664
If somebody ever does get in trouble with that firearm, whether it be with the laws or worse, they start tracking it to do with a crime, do you really want your wife anywhere near the chain of custody?
09-19-2016, 06:08 PM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,764
Hey TopGun I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!!
But why not just be safe and both the buyer and seller go to a licensed FFL and do the transfer there? The buyer would be responsible for the charges by the FFL (logging in and "reselling" the firearm and doing the background check) but that relieves the seller of any liability.
But why not just be safe and both the buyer and seller go to a licensed FFL and do the transfer there? The buyer would be responsible for the charges by the FFL (logging in and "reselling" the firearm and doing the background check) but that relieves the seller of any liability.